Matchday discussion

sorry felon but I agree with THFC he has not improved us one bit and don’t forget 7 of these players were in the team that finished second to Leicester Ageing is a problem but can be managed with good tactics Jonny Evans is 36 and still doing a job for Leicester.I see Dyer has said today he wants to play centre back and always has but played midfield to help the team.how can you justify his continuous use of a 5foot 4inch striker who loses the ball at the slightest challenge.Even pochetino saw this and only played him as a sub.I fear for Wednesday .I fear for our next couple of years but will be the first to eat my own words if Mourino turns us into a serious contender again

 

And wasn’t it Dier that was insisting that he wanted to play DM after he had a really strong season?

Now he can’t pass and can’t run he wants to drop back...

 

So with Son & Kane available Pochettino had this team in 14th without an away win since January 2019 in the league, we got thumped 2-7 at home biggest ever defeat in the CL followed closely by a 3-0 humiliation by Brighton.
JM has improved on that shambles and he doesn't have Kane & Son available he also has had more players go than come in since he arrived so squad overall is weaker.
With regards to Lampard this is a manager that has improved a side he took over who finished 3rd which he is roperly clinging on to 4th with and will struggle to replicate points wise what sari did is that improvement?

 

Sorry but have to agree to disagree.

You are referring to the final stages of Pochs time with us when it was clear the writing was on the wall for the relationship and both he and the players were unsettled.

That was a bad period but you cannot sum up Poch’s tenure by those games as there were other games during the same season we played reasonably well.

The whole idea of changing a manager mid season is to drive change and get a lift which has not happened.

As far as Lampard is concerned, again, I wasn’t taking about results. I was talking about performances and attitude

 

This was a year long decline from January 2019 it was rock bottom when JM was appointed.
Anyone would think we were enjoying champagne football the way some are going on, the football was becoming farcical players wanted to leave complete disharmony in the camp.
That's all very relevant to what JM inherited, people ask what the improvement is - only Klopp & Pep have more points since JM took the reigns of a circus.
He's lost our only 2 genuine world class players who happen to account for about 75-80% of our goals over the past few years.
Its actually laughable people expect more with the current state of squad.

What people are asking for currently is so unrealistic it's ridiculous. Should he be playing free flowing all action football with a bang average squad missing his 2 best players whilst out pointing Klopp n Pep then to get fans off his back?

 

How is expecting some passion and a little
bit of quality from a group of players all being paid £50k per week and training everyday laughable?

If you needed an ambulance and the driver turned up late, without a licence and didn’t know any directions, would you stand up for him?

it is the job of the coaches and players who are all paid handsomely to at least show some pride.

These players are not championship quality and ok, we should expect now not to beat Liverpool or City and I’m sure we will drop points all season given the lack of quality vs both those sides.

They are still better players than most of the bottom half sides yet can’t actually manage to get out of the half with more than 2 players given how deep they sit.

They also don’t seem comfortable passing 10 yards forward but are perfectly happy passing 70 yards forward to no one

 

Not without Kane & Son they're not

 

Let's say for instance Kane & Son were no longer at Spurs.

Where do people honestly think the rest of this current squad would finish after an entire season?

Doesn't matter who is in charge it's a mid table side at best without those 2.

 

With Mourino in His current mood probably bottom six although you seem to think he is doing a good job at present with only Koop and guardiola with more points since he became our manager .So your argument defeats its self

 

So what more exactly do you expect?
He's doing a pragmatic job with a p;ss poor squad , would Eddie Howe or Chris Hugton be doing better?
Who else is there Pardew? Allardyce? Pelligrini?

The only manager available anywhere near Mourinhos pedigree is Benitez and again would he be playing expansive attacking football with what JM currently has to hand and picking up more points?

No one can say what they'd do different or better than 'play parrot' as if that's the answer to the club's woes.

A manager picks up a side on its knees loses its best 2 players club also sells CE, yet is only out pointed by Klopp n Pep and that's not good enough.

Seriously the only people that should be getting stick over this is the Board who neglected what was a good team into the shambolic state its currently in.

 

Do you really think felon that at the end of the season only klopp and pep will have earned more points than us . If so I will be more than happy and will take back all my complaints about Mourino.

 

Well said Felon not sure what one or two others are on about Jose gets 15 million therefore he should be able to improve players what a crock the squad is done Dier Jan Toby Rose etc etc have spent the last few season being run into the ground also makes different who's in charge the squad is/was and will be for sometime complete unbalanced can't make a silk purse out of sow's ear we all know who's to blame. Levy, ENIC and to some extent the great Poch every week win lose or draw the same arguments arise play 442 or 352 etc etc no manager anywhere can legislate for individual schoolboy errors and the majority of the goals we are conceding wouldn't look out of place on a Sunday morning down the local rec

 

He may not but at this moment in time it's a fact so if anything he's done well with the circus he's been handed.

 

Let’s try and iron this out.....below are the available players we have and the country that they actually represent - 16 x full international’s, without mentioning our best/injured players, so enough for a match day squad.

Please can someone explain how this squad of players can be described as having no quality?

These players represent their respective countries, please tell me how anyone thinks this group are worse than most, if not all of the teams from 5th place down?

Lloris -
Gazzaniga-
Alderweireld-
Vertonghen-
Sanchez -
Davies -
Dier -
Winks -
Foyth -
Aurier -
Ndombele -
Fernandes -
Alli -
Moura -
Lo Celso -
Bergwijn-

I understand that we do need players, especially fullbacks but we should still be able to put in a good performance (not necessarily win but play well) with this group.

I’m pretty sure JM doesn’t have us attacking all week in training then when they all turn up on match day they decide to drop 10 men behind the ball and then launch passes upfield.

The way they play is a direct reflection of the instructions they are given.

I’m not sure where the list of random manager names came from because I haven’t seen anyone ask for any of them.

But if whoever mentioned Benitez thinks that he would sit deep and defend with this squad clearly hasn’t ever watched his sides play. Maybe we would lose week in and week out 4-1 instead of by the odd goal, maybe we wouldn’t, but at least we would try and play football rather than sit deep and let other teams dominate

 

Lloris- error prone dreadful kicker aswell
Gazza- not a No1 decent enough back up
Toby- quality but on the slide due to age
Jan- quality but even more on slide
Sanchez- error prone poor reader of game
Davies- extremely basic lacks pace
Dier- sloppy in possession not a CB or DM
Winks- lightweight bang average
Foyth- awful error prone player
Aurrier- awful error prone player
N'Dombele- lazy can't get fit
Fernandes- not sure what he is/does
Alli- inconsistent contributes odd goal
Moura- inconsistent contributes less goals
LoCelso- runs about no goals no assists
Bergwijn- fresh looks promising
Tanganga- fresh looks promising still raw
Lamela- runs about when not injured
Parrot- scores goals at u21 n reserve level
Skipp- plays when no 1 else is available
Sissoko- runs about lacks any talent
Wanyama- was decent can't run now

That's the team/squad we have to date.
It's short, limited, unbalanced, way too many weak links, has no leadership & lacks pace.
I'd say not 1 of that bunch gets/improves or holds down a starting place at any other top 4 side in the country most wouldnt improve teams mid to lower end of table.
Alli on 1 of his 5 decent games a season maybe, N'Dombele if he can ever bother to get fit and that's it. (Old Jan n Toby would've not current over the hill Jan n Toby tho)

Or do you genuinely think these players individually and collectively are better than this?
Coz I don't see it, minus Son & Kane I wouldn't expect to see that squad challenging for top6 let alone top 4 it's painfully average and badly put together.

As Lucky Luciano has alluded to Mourinho just because he's paid a lot of money doesn't mean he can turn players into something they're not, players are either top quality or they're not.

It's been our utter failure in the transfer market that has us where we are at currently and that's on Pochettino & Levy who never bothered to improve or make competition for places because Kane n Son were there to carry it, just enough for top 4 while others were sh;te.
Many clubs have proactively improved while we put our fingers in our ears and trusted/believed in Poch despite all evidence pointing to a slide & decline.

Now people want to jump on the back of the new guy who's not only dealing with this sham of a side but who's actually only been outpointed by the 2 best managers in the league who've been backed for numerous seasons whatever happened to time patience were in a transition......

It's actually embarrassing, people need to take the rose tints off realise where this team really is quality wise and accept the best we can hope for is the FACup.

Personally I'd write off even trying to get Europa to swerve the whole distraction.
Attack the summer window with buying new FBs, a CB, a DM, a Striker minimum and I'd savagely get rid of the stock pile of non entity error prone injury prone half hearted wage thieves and hope to bolster with anything made from such a collective bunch of flops.

 

It’s funny, I agree with absolutely everything that you have said below...100% but also think we could go through most PL teams in exactly the same way.

I just can’t understand why some people (like me) think it’s painfully obvious that JM hasn’t improved what we do have in any way and won’t no matter who he signs yet others think that in the summer, with a few signings that he may or may not get (because Levy probably won’t spend) he will change his style, the current playing style and turn us into a more attractive/dangerous side.

I really believe that all he has done and will continue to do is turn us into a posh Burnley

 

I am not saying this as a fact and I don't think many are either but he has to be given a reasonable chance to do this with his own built squad.
And that's the point I'm getting at, he's done alright with what he has and inherited but currently how can anymore be expected?

He needs to be given funds for a rebuild, 2 FBs 1 CB 1 DM 1 Strk as a minimum and all of a starting top 4/6 standard.
Else how can anyone realistically think we should be playing good football and challenging?
If he's not going to go about improving these areas personally then by all means get on his back next season especially if we're still serving up this disjointed slop but the guy needs his own players and time to be fairly judged.
If Levy as we all presume will not give him or support him properly with the rebuild then that is another issue.
But I'm waiting till then to judge.

 

Sorry Felon, another couple of things...the only reason for the turn in opinion on JM is the performances so far this season as I and lots of other people wanted to give him a chance in the hope he would have adapted his style to fit today’s PL. He hasn’t, so I for one would rather cut my losses early and start again with someone like Allegri.

Mentioning the outpointing makes no sense because many people have said many times, it’s not the points, it’s the performances.

Aiming for the FA Cup after consistently challenging for 2nd as well as progressing each year in the Champions League is not my goal for the club. We managed to achieve a lot and despite the change in form, we have way more experience and still have heaps of pace in the side we do have available. Again for me, it’s the coaches role to get the best out of what he has available but he isn’t and no amount of men in our third will help change that. If what we have isn’t working, he should try something new, that’s what he is paid the big money for, surely?

 

Fair point but he won’t get the players and IMO we will be saying exactly the same this time next year about our unattractive, defensive style.

I do hope that I am wrong though...

 

There's no point in being the most entertaining side to get relegated, it's a points based business at the end of the day especially from a side that's got so many issues.
It was a poor 2nd half display from us Vs Wolves but at HT we were beating them 2-1 how many other side's are doing that v wolves without their best stand out players available?
The 2 goals we conceded were through distinct lack of quality defending not because we didn't try or stuck 10 players behind the ball.