What can coaches and managers improve?

Discussion in 'Tottenham forum' started by Jesper, July 4, 2020.

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What can managers and coaches help improve in players?

  1. Physical fitness

    1 vote(s)
    50.0%
  2. Tactical awareness

    2 vote(s)
    100.0%
  3. Set-pieces

    2 vote(s)
    100.0%
  4. Winning/losing attitude

    0 vote(s)
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  5. Technical abilities (ball control, passing, dribbling, tackling etc)

    1 vote(s)
    50.0%
  6. Other (if chosen then please specify)

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  7. Maybe nothing

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
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  1. Jesper Active Member

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    There are some interesting debates about what a manager can improve in his players.

    Any thoughts about which areas managers and coaches can make the biggest difference?
     
  2. Felon82 Well-Known Member

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    A manager is there to set the standards expected of the team individually & collectively.
    Formations & Scenarios can be worked on for systems/tactics.
    Set pieces should be worked on offensively and defensively.
    Fitness etc is for coaches/instructors & players responsibility.
    Attitude & Application lies solely with the players, and this is where managers have the fine balancing act in the modern game with the spoilt pre Madonna's that exist today.
    You can work on something all week, tell players what you want them to do, how you want them to play etc but how do you account for that shambolic defending mid week that's players not reading the game/concentrating/trying.

    Attitude/Application/Talent , if the players seriously lack in those 3 departments then you're on a hiding to nothing
     
    Jesper likes this.
  3. Jesper Active Member

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    I'd say that for professional football players then the effect on fitness should be minimal. Twenty years ago then maybe but now then physios, dieticians etc should be of very similar qualities in clubs.

    Managers & coaches might tell players which weaknesses a player should work on and then work on them with the player. Some examples example, Lloris and ball on his feet, Sissoko and ball on his feet, Ericsen should have been told to practice his corner-taking and direct free kicks. Other players their own specific things.

    I believe that mistakes are difficult to coach away, risky behaviour can be coached away to some extent and less risky behaviour should lead to less bad mistakes.

    With the attitude then.... I am not sure what to think, either the player is professional and/or has the right attitude or it might be difficult to improve. I seem to remember reading a story about the girlfriends/wives might be important. Both for settling into new country and for less scandals.

    The tactical awareness, the formations and practicing on scenarios might be the biggest impact. Creativity and fluidity vs rigididy etc etc
     
  4. THFC Guest

    This is a great question and is as much about the club as the coach/manager.

    For me there are a few things which is why it’s key to have a strong head coach surrounded by coaches who he trusts to deliver his vision:

    1) The shape, positioning and set up of the team - A coach or managers primary responsibility is to ensure that every player in the starting 11 knows the position they are playing, their responsibilities for covering their team mates and their role against the opposing team. This is the system that you are using
    2) Their understanding of the opposition - knowing their style of play to ensure you adapt to manage their strengths and expose their weekness
    3) The ability to recognise and make adjustments - Identifying early in the game if things are not working. These things are not off the cuff or made up on the spot, they are planned and practised and that decision needs to be made early
    4) Ensuring the squad balance and harmony is correct - you may have a brilliant player that doesn’t fit with a system which causes the whole machine to break
    5) Fitness and effort - Key to any teams success is making sure that they are fit enough to compete and are motivated enough to maintain their position in the starting 11. If performances drop, so should the player be dropped to drive competition for that place in the team
    6) Managing egos - Some players, rightly or wrongly, require an ego massage to maintain high levels of performance. Alli is a perfect example of it as is Ndombele by the looks of it. The sad reality is that players are way overpaid and way overhyped so they believe that they have a right to start every game. They don’t and the head coach needs to ensure they know that without breaking their attitude which is a tough balancing act.

    I think all of the above are interlinked and accompany things that are a given for every professional team these days such as diet, facilities and medical care.

    7) The final and most appropriate for our club is how the manager or head coach works with and maintains a relationship with the chairman. The days of being responsible for the team, signings, selections are over for some clubs and having to manage both up to the chairman and down to the coaching staff and players is critical

    That’s just my view on it and that’s exactly why when I look at managers/coaches like JM who had a lot of success a long time ago but not recently, believe that it was the wrong appointment for us. He had almost complete control on most aspects, bought whichever players he wanted and upset any players he didn’t like. You can’t do that in our club with our set up and when you add that to coaching methods and match day systems that are outdated and ineffective, there will only ever be one result - poor performances and poor results with unhappy players.
     
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  5. Felon82 Well-Known Member

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    He won the Prem in 14/15, the league cup & Europa LG in 16/17 considering that was his last appointment aswell it's hardly an eternity ago is it ?
     
  6. THFC Guest

    In football terms a lot has changed since then so yes I would say it’s an eternity ago in that sense. He won the premier in 14/15 and left Chelsea in a terrible state. He won the league cup and and Europa league with an extremely expensively assembled squad that he inherited from LVG. He left Utd in a terrible state.

     
  7. Felon82 Well-Known Member

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    Poch who was your number 1 choice to come back won nothing and left Spurs in a terrible state.
     
  8. THFC Guest

    Not really...we consistently finished in the top 4, consistently managed decent runs in Europe and he left 12 months after not being allowed to spend any money on areas he identified needed replacing. The state of spurs when he left was the fault of the board. With the same set of players and the current manager, we are far worse to watch now and that’s a fact.
    Who do you think is going to come in and work with our structure including Levy and do any better? JM is trying and I actually like him for entertainment as he seems like a nice guy but he hasn’t improved us one bit and he will leave, I’ll guarantee that As we won’t be getting anywhere near the champions league for a while again now.

     
  9. Bazza47

    Bazza47 Well-Known Member

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    So....can managers and coaches improve the team...let’s try to make a basic comparison of Poch versus Jose over the last and first 16 games of each manager:

    MP P 20W4 D6 L6 Points 18 Win Rate 25% Goals conceded 21
    JM P 20 W8 D2 L6 Points 26 Win Rate 50% Goals Conceded 22

    So what are we to conclude from this. Whilst JM has done better than Poch, that was never going to be the most difficult thing in the world. JM’s renowned for sorting defences, so I guess that’s one mark against him and whilst the Win rate is far better than Poch, a PPG of 1.3 is in fact shite if you want to make top 4 - needs to be 2 per game.

    Now you can detect my tone here .... I’m not a Jose fan club member, but in the end nor was I a Poch one, for more than a year.

    When I look at Klopp/Pep/Ole/Lampard/Arteta.....then the answer to the question is clearly Yes. For JM....it’s a No from me.

    Views?

    COYS
     
  10. Cheshuntboy Guest

    I was very happy when Mourinho was appointed, because it was clear to all but the most obtuse that Pochettino was a busted flush. I assumed that the basics would be sorted-out, and that we would at least be top four contenders, if only because our rivals all had new(ish) managers with no track record of success, City and Liverpool excepted obviously. The fact that we're instead struggling to stay in the top ten tells me that Mourinho was suckered into believing much of the hype of the last few years, like most of the media and the supposed experts. The youth policy supposedly fostered by his predecessor is in fact a joke, and the 'World-class' stars of the team, Kane perhaps apart, are prima donnas far more concerned with image than performance, Alli exemplifying all that's wrong with the modern footballer. No doubt Mourinho regrets coming to Spurs every minute of every day (except payday, of course), but we'll probably have the same pantomime over his departure as is normal under Levy/ENIC - David Pleat as caretaker for most of next season, and then some cheap replacement who's done well with a Spanish lower league club - sounds like Pochettino again then!
     
    Felon82 likes this.
  11. Jesper Active Member

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    I was hoping that Morinho would have improved the team more and faster, still I do think there are some things that has improved:
    -Lloris is better with his passing and better with the ball at his feet.
    -Aurier is making less mistakes
    -Sanchez is giving away less fouls
    -Moura seemed to have improved his crossing
    -Sissoko appears to be on friendlier terms with the ball
    -Lamela is giving away less fouls

    What differs between the good and the great is that the great constantly try to improve. Some players have had the same weaknesses for years, now I see (possibly because I really want to see) improvements in players who seemed to have been happy at their level.

    Poch might have been a great positive motivator, however, that alone can only get a team so far. Mourinho might be less of a positive motivator, however, when needed (and possibly more often than that) he can be uncompromising in demanding improvements. The two of them working together might be a combination where their strengths could complement each other well.

    Klopp and Guardiola have their methods to try to get players to improve, their methods will not work on everyone all the time and Mourinhos methods will also not work on everyone all the time.

    At this moment in time I still believe that Mourinho is the right man. The needed change is in scouting, money have been spent but it has not been well spent.
     
  12. Guesty Guest

    the manager/coach has to be able to look at the players abilities and determine the best system that will work with those available to him.

    If he is trying to fit inadequate players into a system they can't play... there will be problems.

    In our case both the above have problems as a lot of our players simply aren't good footballers....
    And have no idea where to make key leading runs (so we are too regimental and easy to read)

    bottom half of the table to come....
     
  13. Felon82 Well-Known Member

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    Pochettino in 6 years spent just shy of £422million on 27 players.
    He did have money to spend, just between him & Levy they couldn't ever make their minds up on what/who/where to improve.
    Hence why the team have stagnated so badly and with the slow phase out of its best FBs , DM, CM, Playmaker plus the aging/injuries to our best CBs and Striker it's no wonder we've regressed so badly.
    JM has consistently won trophies and finished most leagues in the minimum top 4 spots even 17-18 where he finished 2nd with a worse UTD team over Pochs Spurs before it was completely broken.
     
  14. Felon82 Well-Known Member

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    Actually makes me laugh those that expect anything remotely near top 6 with the collective sh;te Poch & Levy gathered between them.
    Answer me this how long would City/Pool etc hang on to a player for instance like Lamela ? He's been at Spurs for 8 years almost and still we listen to fans saying give him another year or more time.....
    We are stock piled with players that don't have an actual stand out solid position- no one knows what Winks, LoCelso, N'Dombele, Sessegnon, Gedson, Alli, Lamela, Moura are or do. They all play regularly but none of them can string any form of consistency together or boss a game.
    We have an average at best LB that offers nothing on the wing, then we have a shambolic RB that goes forward neglects all defensive duties and is just a complete liability.
    Jan & Toby were class but not anymore and Sanchez & Dier are very poor replacements.
    Lloris isn't what he was and there's no proper DM.

    How does anyone think this side should be doing better?
    People need to get their heads out of their arses n see a lot of these players for what they are - lower to mid table dross.

    There's no point harping back to what Poch got out of them coz 1 that was a long time ago and 2 over half the side that made it a good one have gone or are past it.
     
    Bazza47 likes this.
  15. THFC Guest

    I think you are completely missing my point Felon82.

    I agree with everything that you have said about the lack of quality in the squad now.

    I also agree that during his 6 year period Poch was allowed to spend over $400 million.

    What we will not agree on is $400 million over 6 years is nothing compared to what most sides spent over the same period. Let’s use your figures for a moment - $422 million is $70 million a season. So, in each of the last 6 seasons for any of the other top sides that is one player. Then take into account the players in the squad that Poch inherited who all needed to be moved on - I won’t name them all but they include Dawson, Kaboul, Naughton, Bentaleb and Adebayor.

    In 17/18 his net spend was under $20m. In 18/19 his net spend was $0.

    Take a little look at the spend of JM in his last season at Chelsea and fist season at MU for a comparable figure.

    We will also not agree on is despite JM having won a lot in leagues around the world, JM is the best man to suit our club, our hierarchy and achieve success with our players. He may have led MU to 2nd and he may have won a couple of cups but he left them in the exact same ruined state he left Chelsea in. Until Fernandes signed for MU, they were still trying to sort out the remains of his tenure.

    If you tell me that you want to compare us a scraping some wins during JM’s time with us where we have played terribly, not deserved to win but managed to pick up 3 points and think that’s good, that’s up to you. I don’t like the performances or the manner in a lot of the games we have won under him so comparing the records means nothing IMO because the record doesn’t show the performances.

    Then on to Poch - I am not sure where you have picked up from anything that I have said that I am a Poch fan. We had a long period where I really couldn’t face watching us and decisions such as CL final to play Kane which beggared belief.

    What I do think is I cannot think of any other manager at the moment in world football that will come into our unique set up with our unique chairman and do much better. The fact is, Poch is still a spurs fan which is what we need right now, he can get the best out of players and he can operate with a small budget. If he was to return, IMO he already knows where to strengthen and would only do so with a guarantee that he could finally have some money to spend on players to fix those positions, positions he was calling out for his last 12 months. If you were in your job telling your employer that you needed something to make things better, you would probably be unhappy and that would probably impact your performance. That’s what happened with Poch in his final 18 months IMO.

    I like your loyalty and belief in JM but let’s see if you are still saying the same things at the end of next season if he stays.

     
  16. Spurporter Well-Known Member

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    I agree with that

    That is wrong. Mou doesn't regret anything ever. That is his detriment at times, but his entire career is a testament to his unshaken belief in his decision making. JM is the wrong manager for Spurs, but not a bad manager. I disagree he is washed up by now or was earlier.
    Mourinho will not be sacked soon and rightfully so, although I am a well documented opponent of his appointment. He needs time to make Spurs his team. First he needed to rid of an outspoken opponents among players. Rose was shipped out as a result. Now he needs to deal with hidden Poch admirers and figure out who he can trust right away and who he needs to win over. Among those is the core of Pochettino's Spurs, so the work in that segment will take time. So, next step is to eliminate those whom he cannot trust right away. Ndobele and Dele will wait on the bench to sort out their feeling about the new boss, as they are the talents that have egos and cannot be ignored. He has a natural allies among Portuguese speakers Dier and Lucas, so he plays them, hoping to win them over. He must also rely on Kane and Son regardless whether they are truly his players or not. Those he will figure out later. There is growing group of players that are clearly on his side: Tanganga, LoCelso, Steven, Sissoco and Winks (possibly). There are also those who he is ready to part with: Lamela, Verts. I have no idea about Gedson, Tobi and Foyth as of yet. May be Mou is not certain there as well.
    I might miss something or someone, but the point is that the process I described is equally or, perhaps, even more important for JM than chasing now elusive UCL. He knows about it, Levy knows about it. Now Mou himself told that being out of Europe is a big deal, but not the end of the world.
    Did JM sacrifice Europe for his dominance as a manager? No, never. But he overdid his man management inadvertently and run into the team that lost 3 in the row in Blades being not fully prepared footballwise. If he was, he would have had a different team selection. Everyone and their mothers know that when Mou blames players, he actually concedes that he himself did screw up. I was and still am devastated from that defeat. JM will recover fast, as he should.

    Now, do I have a huge concern? Yes I do. Spurs need a rebuild, but hired a specialist to get an established squad over the hump. I guess that when he took the job at Spurs JM believed that he had rebuilt MUFC to what it is now and Solskjaer just adopted the fruits of his labour . That is the only explanation. Anyway, Levy has no choice but give Mou that chance. Mou will be at the helm the next season entirely. Plus some of 21-22 at minimum. Spurs will win a domestic cup or so I hope. We follow Gooners every step of the way, do we not?.
     
    Last edited: July 6, 2020
  17. Jose's Ghost Guest

    Jose won't see the end of next season with a 41% win percentage that is for sure... something will give before that occurs.
     
  18. Jose's Ghost Guest

    A good manager will get the utmost out of his players and subsequently more out of the collective than the proverbial sum of its parts. Tactics and philosophy are all well and good but with badges and such being mandatory these days there is generally not much to differentiate between managers in this sense. The best managers will obviously know what a good footballer looks like but beyond recruitment man management is key. How much can a manager positively affect a player with his personality? There is a limit but it is obvious when a manager is excelling in this manner and even more so when he is not.

    Pochettino should be remembered well... indeed you could easily make an argument that he should not have been sacked so readily (if the thinking behind Jose's appointment was to save the season and precious Champions League revenue then the reasoning has been proven flawed). Ultimately, beyond numerous football matches, Pochettino did not win anything and there is no escaping that. But it is too easy to write a narrative in football once the result is known... football is not necessarily fair and despite his own shortcomings at times I wouldn't say Pochettino was the luckiest manager I've ever seen during his time at Spurs.

    It's not an exact science but there will always be a strong correlation between success and expenditure/wage budget. A good manager will punch above his weight in this sense and Pochettino certainly did that while playing an attractive and aggressive style of football. The unfortunate reality for us is that while Spurs continue to spend significantly less than the very top sides consistently achieving above our financial level is going to be difficult no matter who is in charge.
     
    Bazza47 likes this.
  19. THFC Guest

    Nice summary...balanced and well considered

     
  20. Cheshuntboy Guest

    Pochettino unlucky? When I contrast all the times previous managers were on the wrong end of dodgy decisions (Mendes 'goal' against United, the Ballotelli attack on Parker in the 3-2 loss at City, Crouch's sucker sending-off at Mourinho's Real Madrid, to name just a very few) with all the late late winners and flukes enjoyed by Pochettino throughout his time at Spurs, I cannot accept that bad luck played any part in his downfall. Yes, the Sissoko CL Final penalty was a surprise, but it WAS handball, and we see far more harsh decisions every week courtesy of VAR, and no one can possible dispute that we had ten years worth of good luck in getting past City and Ajax to be in the final at all. Oh, and if Poch's fans say that the late winners were professionalism rather than luck, how can they say the wheels coming off last year was bad luck rather than lack of that same professionalism?
     
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