Toby Alderweireld replacement ready and waiting

Discussion in 'Featured' started by Josh Bolton, August 3, 2018.

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  1. Josh Bolton

    Josh Bolton Active Member Blogger

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    In a Mexican standoff with cheque books as the weapons of choice, Daniel Levy and Ed Woodward do battle in the firing line. Both are engaged in a multi-million-pound game of who’ll blink first: United want Alderweireld, Spurs want Martial; United refuse to strengthen a Premier League rival, Spurs will only agree to a deal without Martial’s inclusion if the fee is eye-wateringly irresistible. Got that? Good.

    Now with the ever-chipper José Mourinho desirous for Alderweireld’s arrival, it’s sum-slinger Woodward who’s likely to fire first, triggering a punitive bid so a moaning Mou gets his man. To not acquire Martial as part of the sale would be scrutinised as suicide for Spurs, but can the club really afford to rebuff a bid north of £50m for a player who has no desire to sign a new contract; the same player who could leave for a mere £25m next summer?

    Since bridges have been burned between Spurs and Alderweireld’s representatives — both had apparently agreed to a £130,000-a-week contract in principle only for the latter to go back and demand a further £50,000 on top; Alderweireld senior has since been banned from Hotspur Way — we now have a world-class player that’s not wanted by his club. As a result, rumours regarding potential replacements have been rife since January.

    This summer it’s Ajax prodigy Matthijs de Ligt who’s been appraised the ultimate Alderweireld successor; it’s courtesy of his similitude to the Brylcreemed Belgian. A few minutes into a de Ligt highlights reel on YouTube will exhibit why: he’s composed in possession, dynamic in the last line of defence and boasts a sublime passing range — little wonder why the Eredivisie giants value the 18-year-old at £80m-plus.



    Despite the indubitable ability of de Ligt and the cognisance that spending signals ambition, it would be imprudent of Spurs to part with a fee doubling their own transfer record for a young, talented, ball-playing centre-half, when they already have access to a young, talented, ball-playing centre-half in Juan Foyth.

    A forgotten figure of late, it was this time last year Spurs were battling with Paris Saint-Germain for the highly-rated Estudiantes youngster. After putting pen to paper on 30 August 2017 (we left it late there, didn’t we?) Foyth has played a bit-part role having been fourth in the centre-back pecking order — and third following Alderweireld’s injury — unable to displace the formidable Vertonghen-Sánchez partnership.

    There have been signs of quality though. Cast your mind back to a bitterly cold January evening in South Wales: an 82nd-minute Harry Kane equaliser saved Spurs’s blushes as they drew 1-1 with Newport County. The game will be remembered as the night Tottenham survived a glorious FA Cup giant killing, but it should be remembered as the night when Juan Foyth proved himself worthy of the Spurs shirt.

    On a pitch better suited to the rugby team who play on it, Foyth was the standout performer. Undeterred by the physicality of the opposition, the Argentine rose to the occasion and was uncompromising with his style of play — constantly looking to play out from the back at every opportunity provided, despite the conditions. If this was Pochettino’s test for the 19-year-old, he passed with flying colours.

    Eight months on from that night in Newport, Foyth now has the chance to mature from hot prospect to hot property. His manager is expecting big things this season: “[Juan] is 20 now and a great talent too. He is going to surprise many people. He is a great kid with a lot of quality to become one of the fantastic centre-backs in the Premier League and Europe too.” If Alderweireld is indeed sold for a lofty sum, Pochettino may have to put this prediction to the test — something which could turn out to be no bad thing.
     
    Last edited: August 3, 2018
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  3. Mick

    Mick Member

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    If what you say Josh is true then Alderweireld senior has played a poor hand. Toby has been on low wages for past 2 seasons for no reason not surprised Levy wants top dollar or Martial and if he does not want to play for club good riddance
     
  4. John Guest

    Mourinho doesn't want to allow players to join rivals, but wants rivals to allow their players to join him. Levy has got to stick to his guns, and play the same game. Tell them they wont get Toby for just money, end off.
    With Toby, we have underpaid him, but really, £130k p/w is a good wage when you consider our bonus incentives on top, and to hold out for £180k p/w, is I'm afraid, over the top. I know Liverpool raised the bar by paying VD £185k p/w, but I would bet very few CB's anywhere in the world, get that much. I like JF, and if we do lose Toby, I think he can do a good job in a 3, but probably not ready to play as a pair, just yet.
     
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  5. Josh Bolton

    Josh Bolton Active Member Blogger

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    Researching this piece, there’s a lot of well-informed people who believe Alderweireld (and his team) played a poor hand.

    After going back on their word to agreeing to a £130k deal, they requested a wage they knew Spurs would not pay. It then backfired when, this summer, they realised other clubs (even United) are not willing to pay him £185k-a-week.

    People can say we should pay him what he wants/the club should give him a clean slate because of his abilities but I think the behaviour during negotiations has seen relations broken beyond repair.

    Obviously much of this could be wrong, but when Pochettino didn’t play Toby for the last couple of months when fit, it asks the question, doesn’t it?
     
    Last edited: August 3, 2018
  6. Josh Bolton

    Josh Bolton Active Member Blogger

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    Think that does give us the upper in hand in trying to lure Martial.

    Foyth will be a valuable player for us, shown it in a handful of appearances.

    And I do agree with you: he looks a lot more comfortable in a back three
     
  7. Andy M Guest

    I would take out the extra year option on his contract and keep him in the reserves rather than United get him without giving us Martial in return. Who would want him in 2 years time? Toby should think about it
     
  8. Big fran Guest

    I'd definitely keep him for a year and invoke his extra year but I'd play him in the meanwhile and by then foyth will be somewhere near ready for first team footy. Also it keeps a world class centre half on relatively poor wages and he will be the wrong side of 30 by then with limited options and spurs levy n poch all proved a point to others in the squad that we don't get held to ransom no more.
     
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  9. antony Active Member

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    Has to be a hard-ball approach both with Alderwield and Utd. Yes he can go but not without Martial coming the other way. Toby/Jose don't like it let him sit in the stands and wait for his move next year when he is 30 and Utd might have a change of manager and heart and any other offer might not be as lucrative and he would have spent another season on 50-60k!
     
  10. Felon82 Well-Known Member Blogger

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    It's all a bit messy this one, not quite sure where I sit with this.

    On the 1 hand the money is obscene to normal people but in the Football world your talking about going rate for proven quality in Fee & Wages.

    Toby is undoubtedly of the highest quality and therefore should be personally looking for his market value in wages , we may have offered £130k but I can see it from his point of view when you see what others of less ability are earning.

    Then you have to factor in that he is looking for his last big contract of which he will be half the average retirement age once it's over....

    Then on the other hand it can't just be the player expecting market value wages without the club expecting market value transfer fee if sold.

    In keeping a player beyond his wishes on a relatively low wage does it bode well for the team?
    Especially if as some are suggesting we let him sit in the stands for a year?
    All while his value depreciates.....

    A player swap would do 2 things , move 2 unhappy players 1 walks directly into the 1st team and improves it, the other adds to a squad and may improve it.
    Seeing as Utd finished above us last season to me again we're strengthening rivals with finished products and getting in potential.

    I think the swap improves Utd more than us and it also makes us a little weaker imo.

    Foyth is not a ready made replacement for Toby and isn't likely to be for a long while if ever.
    And with news that Dembele & Rose are up for sale also again we're losing Experienced finished articles who will need to be replaced with as good a standard just to stand still - potential won't cut it!

    The ineptitude of this window is astonishing even by Levy's warped way of thinking if this pans out as it's looking Poch won't need to be Brave hel need a f@#£&?g miracle.
     
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  11. Walid Guest

    "...With Toby, we have underpaid him, but really, £130k p/w is a good wage when you consider our bonus incentives on top..."

    Everyone talks as if they know everything but, in reading literally hundreds of these comments, over the past few months, there has not been ONE which has detailed what, exactly "our bonus incentives" are, or how and why they are better than bonuses and incentives which are paid at other clubs. Heavens knows that if they are attached to actually WINNING things, then it's a game of roulette that Levy keeps on winning and the players (and their pay packets) keep on coming up short.

    As for keeping Toby for a year - but forcing him to play in reserves, that is really silly. He's not Adebayor, whose behaviour in the dressing room was said to be "disruptive", when not getting his way. Publicly, at least, Toby has been nothing less than openly supportive of the team, even when not selected. He is the best right=sided centre back inth e league. Why would you NOT want to play him, if you had him and if he is not being a bad influence in the dressing room?

    Since the price on his head has dropped, from £75m to £50m, we've halved our potential "loss" by keeping him for another year. A year in which we could, with Toby, actually WIN something. A year in which we might even reach a compromise with the player over his contract. I said, at the beginning of Summer, that we didn't NEED to spend big on a replacement IF Juan Foyth was promoted. If there is a reluctance to do that AND we can't get Maguire/Lascelles/De Ligt/Mina/Vida... then we could do a lot worse than re-ignite the most successful pairing in the Premier League - or the most fearsome threesome. After all, we now know, thanks to Gareth Southgate, that playing with three at the back is the way to get the best out of Kieran Trippier.

    Or we could just pay him what he is, undoubtedly worth. His presence in the team saves goals. You dont even have to look at his record for Spurs. Just look at what happened at Southampton. The season he played for the Saints, he was as valuable as Harry Kane is for Spurs. Out of 38 league games, he played in 26. In those 26 games, Southampton's goal difference was +26. Without him in the team, 12 games) Southampton recorded a ZERO goal difference. His presence was worth a goal a game.

    Everyone, especially Hugo Lloris, plays better when Toby is on the field. Do we REALLY want to make United stronger - without getting either Martial or Rashford in return?

    Another thing, Toby is so comfortable on the ball, perfect in the tackle and possesses a superb passing range. Could he not also solve a problem when we are short of a fit defensive midfielder? I think he can play in two at the back, three at the back or as a screen for the whole back line. He's that good.
     
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  12. KevMeist Guest

    I have long been an advocate of Toby NOT going to United. IF the story about $130K initial agreement is correct, pay him that now (assuming that can be done) and take the next year to negotiate all over again. If he leaves after the 1 year extension (assuming Spurs invoke it)...then he will NOT be as attractive a deal (in some ways) for another club due to his age by then.

    I'm not 100% sure on whether Martial would work well for us either.

    MarineHo is really stupid to NOT want to "strengthen" another PL with Martial while asking Spurs to do the same with Toby. Go take a long walk off a short pier MarineHo.

    During all of this rigmarole, Toby has kept his head, hasn't been tweeting all over the place and has acted like the professional he obviously is.
     
  13. Josh Bolton

    Josh Bolton Active Member Blogger

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    To play devil’s advocate, the reason why Toby — and a lot of other players in football — don't tweet/speak negatively about their current clubs when grafting for moves away isn't due to some fanciful loyalty but down the fact they will lose out loyalty bonus — MONEY, yes that again — when they move.

    It’s obvious Toby wants to go, so why hasn’t he handed in a transfer request? *Drum roll*... money
     
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  14. antony Active Member

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    Lets get it right! No player or his representatives signs a contract with a gun held to there head!
    I don't disagree Toby is worth more than the 60k he signed up for but sign up for he did.
    Because of the escalation of transfer fees + wages since the Neymar move, Woolwich Sanchez to Utd 500k before tax. Everyone in the profession has become wide-eyed and hungry for the same!

    Yes Toby is very close to world class. Ok I concede, world class in his position but he is 29 going on 30 and if he cannot buy into what Poch is building (characters not only top footballers) for almost 7 million + bonuses then I say, yes! Let him rot in the stands which will give him the time to concentrate on god knows how many properties, cars, gold gifts for his love ones, private school fees and making sure his children and grandchildren are set for the rest of their lives. I'll add good luck to you sir for be being blessed with a talent I DO only dream of!

    The 2 million more you want has nothing to do with necessity! It's all about your ego son!

    That can sit next to you in the stands!

    Rant over. Apologies!
     
  15. Josh Bolton

    Josh Bolton Active Member Blogger

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    You make some really valid points but just as you say no-one knows how good/bad our bonus incentive system is, how do you know that Toby hasn't been disruptive.

    Say, for example, he’s disrespected the club/manager/teammates in negotiations, Pochettino can’t just let it fly because he's a great player. Sir Alex Ferguson, the greatest manager of all-time, practiced what he preached: "No player is bigger than the club.”

    As I’ve said in a previous comment: the reason a lot of players don't bad mouth/hand in transfer requests at their clubs is because they miss out on £££££££££ in the form of loyalty bonuses.
     
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  16. Walid Guest

     
  17. Walid Guest

    Antony, I DON'T know. What I said was that PUBLICLY, Toby has been supportive. There's no evidence to suggest he is disrupting the dressing room (and, I concede, none to say he has NOT disrupted it, either.) His ONE public comment about not playing came AFTER the World Cup (and, in the circumstances, was perfectly valid), not at a time when he was in the Spurs dressing room, or on the Spurs training track.

    I also agree that smart players do not trash the Club, or put in transfer requests, unless they are desperate and are willing to forego loyalty bonuses. With all that said, Toby remains (for the present) a Tottenham player (and, in my opinion, one of the three best players we have) so, let's at least PLAY him, while Levy considers what to PAY him. If we are not going to get £75m for him, then, at least, get a player of our liking (no more 12-month loans of another Frazier Campbell), at this 11th-hour of the window. I always preferred Rashford to Martial - another homegrown talent who is, therefore, easier to include in our Champions League list - but if it IS Martial, at the very least, make sure he is included in the deal to sell Toby, if only to poke a stick into Mourinho's eye.

    If, on the other hand, the window slams shut, with neither player switching AND we actually WIN SOMETHING, the lift that will give the Club and the fans would, surely, be worth the £25m we would lose in extra transfer revenue, for a season. It would also force Mourinho to buy elsewhere, NOT get his first-choice centre back and protect us from being weakened at Manchester United's expense.

    The one thing I would be prepared to stake all that I own on is that if selected, whatever the contractual situation is, Toby would give his all to the team. He is a very good player and would not want to diminish his reputation, if he is in the shop window for a whole year.
     
  18. Jam Guest

    Alderweireld to United for nothing but cash is just plain foolish.. regardless of the fee

    Even with Martial included the deal is risky.. as the club should not sacrifice Champions League at any cost

    That said Mourinho may be about to combust this season.. so there is much to consider

    The most prudent course presently would be for Levy to lower his asking price and send the Belgian abroad

    I do believe Foyth is the intended 'replacement'.. as de Ligt is off the market for now.. and Spurs are currently overloaded at centreback if you include Dier
     
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  19. antony Active Member

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    I'll buy in to all of what you say Walid but I believe and understand that once you fall on the wrong side of Poch if you are gonna stay around then a massive statement (accepting a new 130k 3 year contract) has to be made. Otherwise go and sit in the stands. Fair?
     
  20. antony Active Member

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    Out of 10 "risky" Jam? For me 8/10! Point! well worth the gamble/deal.
     
  21. Walid Guest

    Whether fair or not, that seems to be the case. The problem is, it seems a tremendous waste of an asset that could, in the interim, be of great benefit to the Club (Lord knows, we have precious few of those.) By several accounts, the main problems have been caused by the fractured relationship between Levy and Toby's dad, rather than by anything Toby has said to Poch.

    Having family members for agents is the best and worst of all cases. I'd still like to know what these bonuses amount to. The was a story that Kane's £200k per week can turn into almost £300k, with bonuses and incentives. If I had been Toby, on £50k and then the Club signed Sissoko, on £95k, I'd probably be asking serious questions - but the first of those would be to my agent. I can understand why Levy tries to outpoint other clubs, when negotiating transfers - but gypping individual players is never going to seem like a good long-term strategy for harmony and team-building. From the moment, Alderweireld arrived, our entire defensive structure became more sound (less "Tottenham-like") and we were able to instigate Poch's pressing game with more confidence, knowing that a loss of possession upfield, would be dealt with, should the opposition player with the ball get as far as Toby and his well-organized defensive teammates. Maybe Sanchez will grow into that role and maybe Foyth will be the long-term player to come in when we switch to a back three...but, in the short-term, what do we do if Toby remains our player on 10 August? Just punting him to the stands seems counter-productive, unless we are 15 points clear, at the top of the League.

    These are just my views and I am happy reading those of other passionate fans. Collectively, what we really want is to see Spurs be successful and to continue playing football the right way.
     

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