To Dare is Too Dear

Discussion in 'Tottenham forum' started by Josh Bolton, August 10, 2018.

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  1. Spurporter Well-Known Member

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  2. Spurporter Well-Known Member

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    I respect your position, Chesnutboy, yet I stand by my post. You cannot expect from the owners a supporter mentality. They are not for medals there. Same with players. Same with managers. The purpose of THFC is to make money. Sure, trophies are nice but only to please supporters. Those care about glory only. Players and coaches care about glory, but similar to owners, they do only because wining get them a better contracts. They lie about their intentions, as they will be destroyed by fans, if they ever reveal them. That is why their pressers are the carbon copies of each other regardless what club they represenb.
    Levy's goal, as well as Poch's is to become a perennial Top4 club. That is where money made. Levy is a supporter only for the brief period when matches are played. After that he is a money man. If he would allow himself to be any different, Spurs might have won something or might not, but surely be something like Everton or Villa by now.
    I realised and accepted all of that long ago
    Furthermore I agreed to it.
    I am surprised you have not.
    Last edited: August 12, 2018
  3. antony Active Member

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    But surely any successful business man knows you have to speculate to accumulate and when you are so close to potentially accumulating more money (success) and a speculative additional investment costing 60-80mill in a multi-Billion£ business/industry has to be made, not only to strive for more success/money but to placate, in this case the fans also, who are part of that industries/business's income.

    I don't care how anyone cuts it up, DL's failure or reluctance to invest this Summer was a very, very poor business decision and now imo if we are to at least maintain our top 4 status, we are depending on a large percentage of luck i.e an injury free season and super patient support!!

    A finger crossed mentality is now way to go into a new season and challenge for honours!
  4. Cheshuntboy Guest

    Spurporter - I accept that all football supporters in the 21st Century are in some sort of unholy pact with their club's owners, and the days of the local boy made good buying his hometown club (like Jack Walker at Blackburn) have vanished along with Roy of the Rovers, but I'm afraid I simply can't share the idea that Spurs fans should be grateful to ENIC. I remember when we were in really serious financial trouble in 1991, and there was talk of the club folding, we still won the FA Cup for a record eighth time, and within a couple of years appeared to have the foundations for real success, with stars like Sheringham and Anderton, and young players like Barmby, Campbell (!), Caskey and Walker coming through - all the signs were that we were on the up, as George Graham's Arsenal seemed to be on the slide, and I wouldn't have believed twenty-five years ago that our future would include a new record for consecutive FA Cup semi-final defeats, and just a single trophy in the first eighteen years of the ENIC era. There are probably fans of Chelsea who look back fondly to the days of Mears or Bates, or City supporters who yearn for play-offs against Gillingham, but their clubs have at least sold their souls in return for trophies and glory, while Spurs have traded their wonderful heritage for the world of balance sheets and unending 'projects' - I know which I'd prefer.
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  5. antony Active Member

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    The irony is that by watching the balance sheets and being frugal theses past decades we still have become a top 4, Premier league championship trophy challenging club and now on the cusp with the real end game insight for the sake of a potential 50mill deficit (50 mill worth of players out, 100 mill in) in a multi-billion£ industry and with over 3 months to sort this, Levy fails us!

    Un-frecking believable!!

    Unless somehow he redeems himself in January, failure (non-CL qualification and no silverware) this seasons lands only at one door in my opinion!
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  6. Spurporter Well-Known Member

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    I am with you, antony.
    I think this summer business was a humongous clusterf@ck on Levy's part. But I don't believe he ever wanted to go all out this summer. He said stadium money will not affect transfer money. How about wages? Levy spent quite a bit of extra millions on new contracts. He changed the wage structure, something he was blamed for not doing by this very forum. What budget did wage money come from? You wanted on top of committing to new wages around 40 million, to go on shopping for another 80? Wages are here to stay. Unlike transfer money it is to stay perennial. To do wages before new stadium produced, not after is the speculative risk you are calling for. I don't think Levy could do anything else on large scale.
    Also, he is building the stadium. There are everyday issues he must do regarding construction, naming rights, NFL events, etc. all during closing transfer window. I think the criticism should come for him not having Football Director or other people he must delegate sh;t he used to do himself. Large clubs go not do business like that.
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  7. Felon82 Well-Known Member

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    What utter rubbish, ENIC maybe there to make money only but Top Owners, players & Managers have a blood lust for Trophies, and the better they are at it the bigger the contracts and bigger the revenue.
    If you've 'accepted' your club doesn't want success then what exactly are you cheering on?
    Im sorry Spurporter but this is 1 of the most tragic things I've ever heard on a spurs site or in fact ever.
    Trophies are not to 'appease' fans they are a genuine marker/reward for actual Success.
    The history books don't have a slot for the most frugal side, the Trophies arent engraved with 'but Spurs punched above weight this year'.....
    Unless the FA Cup was originally the Fan Appeasement Cup and us younger fans didn't know ?
    In any Profession the Honours/Trophies/Belts/Ashes/Gongs/Medals/.... are all symbols of being at the top of your game in the field you were/are competing in.
    Olympians don't train for 4 years to appease fans with a possible medal, serious boxers don't risk their health everytime they step in a ring to be a bridesmaid at the sport they all have the same goal to be world champion or hold a belt, even actors don't turn up at the Oscars in the hope to appease their fans......
    Last edited: August 13, 2018
  8. bruski

    bruski Active Member

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    You must sign up Cheshuntboy. Refreshing to hear a different (literal) voice. Who knows, you make catch up the mighty Felon!!
  9. Big fran Guest

    Whilst I agree with a lot of what you say I agree in regards to spurs but other clubs actually have a main goal of success by being the best and winning trophies. City and Chelsea are not profit lead and the owners have put in millions of their own personal fortune that frankly will never get it back in monetary terms but will in the elation of winning trophies.
    Liverpool are a different model where Fenway are probably in it to make coin but are doing it so in a model that investing heavily on quality players will ultimately bring success on the field and a by product of that will bring about increased revenues and prize money. Fenway not a particularly rich group of owners in relation to ourselves. Man United a totally different animal completely who will make money regardless so don't really come in to the equation ..
    However saying that fans of spurs should accept agree and applaud it is utter nonsense.
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  10. Alanh Guest

    I remember when Leeds were in a similar position as us. Knocking on the door to being an elite team. They spent recklessly and well the rest is history. I wonder how many of there fans in those glory years would rather have had a Levy steering the ship. There is unfortunately no forgiveness in the world of being a bankrupt football club. I understand that Levy is a tight bastard but if you cannot see the progress the club has made under his stewardship, we'll you never will. The problem is that it's got to the point where the hatred is spreading to Poch aswell. Honestly people get a life
  11. Big fran Guest

    Nobody is asking spurs to be reckless in their spending we are just asking for one maybe 2 quality signings thats all. A martial or Zaha for 70m in the current market is not reckless. Its not even much of a risk given they are premier league proven. The first game of the season and sissoko who fans will roundly accept is not good enough for the squad is actually starting, lamela is presumably not fit and Son will be unavailable now for upto a month and all of a sudden we have no options again on the bench. Question marks remain over whether Rose will stay given he was left out of the match day squad and if a big offer comes in for Dembele or Toby no doubt will be allowed to leave and replacements cannot now be acquired.
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  12. Felon82 Well-Known Member

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    Was only a matter of time till the 'look at Leeds' line was reeled out......

    Leeds recklessly spent over a period of 4/5 years from 97- 01/02, they gambled that they would stay in the CL and that the revenue that would generate would keep them affloat.
    It was mismanagement and is something that was specific to their Club & Set up.
    What has to be noted though that 1997 was over 20 years ago the Premier LG was only 5 years in the making, the growth sustained in that time is completely unmeasurable to today's influx of TV & Sponsorship deals hence the huge increase in wages and fees- and ticket prices etc may I add.

    What we have seen in that time is a steady Eddie growth over almost 2 decades of Austerity when revenue/income has never been so big.

    Spurs overall have always been 1 of the biggest clubs in England , a London Club (which helps a lot when it comes to branding/sponsorship/recruitment unlike the Midlands/Northern clubs Leeds/villas etc etc) that used to win Silverware even European Cups.
    It too went through mismanagement but is and has been a sleeping giant that really just needed some sensible decisions made at board level and over a sustained period of millions being pumped in (levels no previous ownership have ever had the fortune of) are ENIC supposed to be lauded for not spending it and not going bankrupt?
    ENIC may have improved our position in the League but have seriously killed our Cup pedigree over an 18 year 'project' by being Frugal but they have now saddled us with huge debt ( over 4 times the amount Leeds went into Administration over) for a monstrosity of an NFL prioritised stadium and aren't even bothering to buy players now.

    It's 2018 FFS and we aren't reckless Leeds from last Century so spare us this drivel.
    Last edited: August 13, 2018
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  13. Palmover Guest

    Enic have taken spurs as far as they can and need to sell the club to someone who loves football and wants to win trophies. Levy has had countless opportunities to invest to take the team to the next level and hasn't/won't do it. Levy has never hired a trophy winning manger, because he doesn't want to win trophies. The scouts at spurs aren't doing a good job uncovering unheard of talent. Levy always looks for what he believes is a bargain that's why spurs end up with players like Gkn, Llorente and sisoko. Since Bale left spurs have only had one decent wide player Son, bale left 5 yrs ago.
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  14. antony Active Member

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    I get that Spurporter and I appreciate things are not always as easy/simple as a post make them sound. But! I imagine that back in March, even earlier Poch knew who and what (style/position wise) he wanted for the 18/19 season and gave DL a list. If I am close to being right DL had over 4 months to raise 50-60mill by preparing to off-load 4 peripheral players and their wages add another 60mill to that and you have 120mill to go and sign 2 first 11 challenging additions that would have given the whole club a positive vibe from every quarter and stopped fools like me fretting and posting negativity! I get the books balancing thing but you have to agree (or not) that we were on the cusp of potentially bringing back the glory, glory days to The New Lane for the sake of 60m. Small change in the scheme of things say I!
  15. antony Active Member

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    Agree! Particularly as we are now (was) closer than ever to cementing ourselves as a top epl/cl club. What ffs was the thinking for the sake an additional 60mill!

    City won the championship last season at a canter, 19 points ahead of 2nd and 23 ahead of us in 3rd and yet they go and drop 60m on Marhiez! Utd/Liverpool/Chelsea/Woolwich have all "speculated" to try and close those gap and challenge again for top honours.

    People can through in as many different reasons/scenarios for our lack of investment this summer but ultimately it comes down to lack of ambition, maybe even fear of success and the then constant pressure financially that brings. What ever why I look at it all I can come up with is that Enic are bottlers!
  16. Spurporter Well-Known Member

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    I am not at all grateful to ENIC. Levy is nothing special. He is just adequate. He moves THFC at the pace he feels appropriate. But he did not wreck the carriage. I am sorry Felon82 and his followers, but I do not want to win the league and be close to relegation next season. I do not want to have a good time at work for awhile only to be laugh on next season. Levy gets little, yet STEADY improvement. May be, if he got Van Gaal instead of Poch the things could be different. May be better , may be worse. Both Van Gaal and De Boer failed, yet Poch succeeded. Levy got lucky there. He just caught lighting in the bottle with MP.

    What make the proponents of high money purchases to believe here that Pochetino is able to deliver a title? What, if he is a problem? Sure, many top clubs express their interest in him, but somehow all of them, who wanted him, are in re-build phase, not just one-two steps away from the ultimate success.

    I think Pochetino is here to build, not to win. If you have a builder Coach, you do not buy like Manchester clubs, you get youth and you develop it. Can Pochetino grow into winning coach? He has to. Will he? Time will show, but he only has a season or two to prove it. What does he need to do? He should stop developing new players. He should focus on improving himself and those he has. He needs no Martial, as he has no time to make him better, if he wants to turn himself into what he is not yet.
    Last edited: August 13, 2018
  17. antony Active Member

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    There has to be a happy medium! Especially at a club like ours. Other than Utd's class of 92 which was a freak of football nature, no club, nor will any club produce the same!

    We have had our academy successes and down the line hopefully we may see 1 or 2 more but to invest solely in that would be ridiculous, arrogant even on Poch's behalf.
    The "building" you speak of has to be a combination of both, academy and very close (Martial) to end product investment. Forgive me Spurporter I get the point I think you are trying to make, but to suggest Poch should stop trying to promote from within the academy and that he has not or should not find the time to coach/improve the likes of a Martial is "questionable"!

    We ain't City, Utd or Chelsea in the financial sense.

    Plus at THFC under the stewardship of Enic this will never be the case but that does not mean we cannot reach the heights of those currently above us (2 teams!!) But it needs a compromise, a combination of both and that is where my frustration lies that Enic do not seem willing or understand that now and then we HAVE TO splash the cash to compliment the academy and what they and Poch have achieved to date. Granted with a nice slice of good fortune but ffs don't ride your luck Daniel!

    An there gives us the split! What for various individuals is success? For me and I'm guessing the vast majority of Spurs fans it's continued CL qualification by pushing City all the way each season, a respectable showing in the CL, even a final at some point (Liverpool) and domestic trophies.

    The fear I have with Enic is a Woolwich mentality. Qualify for CL more often than not, fill the new ground, break new ground in various parts of the world and keep the shareholders and chairman and owner financially happy/rewarded.

    My "confusion" is with both options, that further investment (transfers) was needed this summer to attempt to achieve either one!

    If you are saying Spurporter that Enic are attempting to do either of the above by rolling the dice which I believe they are, then for me this is a massive gamble and if the gamble does not pay off I suspect they will sell? Either way what went on, or the lack of it, in the transfer window is beyond my small brains comprehension!
  18. Spurporter Well-Known Member

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    Medium is rarity. There are winning coaches that do not develop, like Mourinho or Conte and there are builders like Pochetino. Obviously, it is not entirely to extremes, even Mou do some developing, although minimal, but the Managers that can develop and win are very rare. Ferguson, Guardiola... Those guys are in high demand and are employed by wealthiest clubs. As soon as Pochetino wins a title he will be gone, since he will then may join the exclusive group of coaches. Well, the entire team will be gone after.
    Levy is young, he is only 56. He can enjoy his job another 10 years or more. So he needs to sell Spurs only then. That is why he doesn't want to win right now. Poch and lads will leave after, very much like Foxes did, whilst he will have to do another rebuild over and to look for new Poch.
    Spurs can win a Fan Appeasement Cup (AKA FA Cup, as Felon82 coined it) or two, but Levy will not go out of his way to get the title medals, unless Poch get serious, which he could and should..
    And you are right, in many ways Levy follows Arsen-anal footsteps.
    Last edited: August 13, 2018
  19. voiceofreason Active Member

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    I actually do think they are buying a Stella signing for the new stadium. Problem is the new stadium ain’t gonna be ready until next year if articles today are to be believed! :)
  20. Cheshuntboy Guest

    It feels a bit like kicking someone when they're down, but the official confirmation that the new ground won't be open in time for the Liverpool game, or perhaps for quite some time after, really does deliver yet another blow to Levy's reputation as some kind of wizard - our £400 million stadium is apparently coming in 250% over budget, and it's hard to believe that Daniel's head wouldn't be on the block in any other 'business' for getting so much so wrong - ILWT?

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