The recent past

Discussion in 'Tottenham forum' started by Jesper, February 21, 2020.

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  1. THFC Guest

    I never said that Poch set us up better, even though I actually think he did. Yes he had a poor run this season against Bayern and Brighton but in the 4 seasons previously we reached heights that were way more than expected.

    I agree that the football was poor in the last year and a half but also feel that he wasn’t allowed to sign/sell players in the same way that JM has been able to since arriving.

    That being said, I do believe Poch needed to go, I just don’t believe JM was the best person to replace him.

    I don’t believe in his style of play or man management as although it has been on him a lot in years gone by, it has also cost the teams that he was with more when he left each of them after 2-3 years with unhappy, defensive playing squads.

    Of course, I will support him but that doesnt mean I have to want him there. I think his old school tactics and coaching style will be found out, we will not achieve the places in the league that we want then he will leave/get sacked and we will have to start again.

    I personally would like to get to the end of this season, thank him for what he has done to reverse the huge slide that Poch started as well as getting rid of players that needed to go then get in someone else who likes high press and quick turnover and let them sign some players for that system.

    In this summer we need to replace JM and sell Rose, Wanyama, Dier, Alli, Aurier, Lamela and Davies and get to work on building a team again. That’s my opinion...not saying it’s right or wrong and I certainly don’t have the coaching badges to back it up but I do have eyes and watching us every week tells me those things need to happen to improve

  2. THFC Guest

    I don’t think he was the right appointment in the first place. IMO he should only have been signed until the end of the season to afford time for a more appropriate selection to be made.

    It’s funny, everyone (not you by the way) seems to stick the knife into Poch for the performances this season however it seems to be forgotten that we had good performances against every top side with him. Where we lacked was against lower sides.

    Now we are putting in poor performances against everyone and although we are picking up more points against lower quality opponents, we are actually playing worse and leaking goals which is no better really.

    I personally don’t think JM is a long term manager if he wins/loses/draws because history tells us that he achieves a bit, spends a lot then leaves after 2-3 years. When he leaves, he leaves a mess.

    I think he would be a brilliant manager in Italy now but there are better choices for’s not about giving him a probationary period or enough time because the outcome will be the same.

    If you like having 10 men defend and giving up possession then he is your man, if you like City/Leicester/Liverpool style of attacking and possession football, he is not.

    Bazza47 and voiceofreason like this.
  3. Jesper Active Member

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    For me I read your question as if it is two parts, first part is about Poch (the past) and the second is about Mourinho (the present).
    I'd say that Poch had some great skills but one of his weakness was that for some reason new players coming into the squad didn't get to play much. Possibly they were not his buys. If so, then sad but something to address and something that I consider part of the job for a manager. Maybe he should have been backed more but if so then would his hypothetical new players have been playing within a month or would there be a bedding in period of a year?
    The players that he did have were once playing well, he couldn't improve them after 2018 and during 2019 he couldn't get them up to be playing at their previous level. The performances and results in 2019 were in my opinion very poor. Based on that I was thinking that he might have been on 'probation' and this season then during his 'probationary' period things did not get better.

    Was Poch given a proper chance to prove himself? If not, which weaknesses were he not allowed to address in the summer of 2018 transfer window?

    In my opinion he was given enough time to turn things around so nobody stuck a knife in him, he was tested and did not pass -> his contract was terminated. My opinion is that the termination of his contract was justified.

    The past will always be with us but a discussion about where we go from where we are now is something I consider to be a separate subject. I am happy to discuss Mourinho in the thread about Mourinho, here in this thread then my contributions will only be about the past manager.
  4. THFC Guest

    Fair enough although I don’t really see how you can talk about one and not the other when talking about inherited players and playing style when it’s in the same season.

    Again, I haven’t said Poch should have been further backed this season or that his termination was incorrect.

    What I have said is JM should have been on probation until the end of this season to see if he fits with our culture. I don’t believe that he does....

    Where we go from here is a great question but should it involve the next 2 seasons playing deep, defensive football with low possession and chance creation before we find out, not in my view.

  5. Spurporter Well-Known Member

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    No, that would have been completely unrealistic. JM wanted to work, but on his terms. He would not have accepted a caretaker job with Spurs.
    Keep in mind that Levy have never had a world class manager working for him, so he took JM terms from his Israeli agent.
    In the hindsight, Levy should have given Poch more time and get Ancelotti, which is also world class, but not a dinosaur and most importantly less scandalous manager.
    I think it will take for Levy some time to realize that Spurs manager doesn't have to be adequate to new stadium, i.e. to be one of the best in Europe.
    I do not expect Mou to be dismissed any time soon. He will have his 1st of July, the pre-season, the summer window and next season, at least till Christmas.
    Last edited: February 24, 2020
  6. Preed

    Preed Well-Known Member

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    As I have said I wanted Mourino in because I thought his experience would get us defensively better.This has not happened and he has made us unbelievably boring to watch.I agree he took over a mess that Levy had let develop and he has been unfortunate with injuries but his defeatist attitude is not what I want to hear and I wonder how long before the players start to think the same..Winks has already blamed the attitude for defeat at Chelsea.Losing both your best strikers is bad luck but it has happened to other teams and you don’t hear the incessant whining as is coming from Mourino.This is the man who styles himself the greatest and as such should be able to come up with a system to cover for the lack of a centre forward.How can he not see what all spurs supporters see and that is Moura is not and never will be a centre forward.Man united are missing their main striker but throw in a youngster where as our promising youngster is not even on the bench.It may be he is not ready but how do you know if you don’t try him.Chelsea on Saturday we’re missing 2 of their best attacking forwards but still outplayed us..I fear that we are going to struggle to finish top six and that means no decent buys in the summer and a few years of dross.Maybe the critics who say Mourino is now ancient history and his ideas obsolete are correct.Finally any one noticed how good Fernandez at united looks and we wouldn’t buy when we had the chance because the penny pincher and pochetino preferred ndombele
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  7. Felon82 Well-Known Member

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    Out of interest who would you have liked to see?
    I wouldn't of minded Rafa personally
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  8. palmover Active Member

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    All the fears about JM playing style etc are justified to an extent, however, until he is given the players he needs to make his style effective it's hard to say whether he will be a success or a failure.

    The lack of possession debate is interesting vs the chavs and RB 49% and 45% respectively. Spurs won't dominate possession under Jm, however, will have more than enough to score goals.
    I am wiling to give Jm the time to get a settled squad and then judge.
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  9. palmover Active Member

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    JM was the only manager available at the time, if spurs had waited any longer where would they be now?
    The problem i have with JM is he moans about everything, maybe there is a science behind it.

    One thing to consider is that JM is big box office and i am sure his appointment is bringing some revenue into the club.
  10. Felon82 Well-Known Member

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    I don't think saying we've got no striker is moaning it's a statement of fact , his 2 only consistent goal threats rnt there and he wasn't bought 1 even though we needed it.
    People are stating klopp/pep would work a way around it but Klopp hasn't had to prove this and pepp has had problems other end this season which he hasn't miraculously remedied.
    If you are gonna try new things then you need players that can execute this but this always goes full circle back to the state of the squad too many passengers average ability and wage thieves.
    What's the likelihood of Alli waking up and scoring 10 goals from here to end of season? Or Moura? Or Parrot?
    We've lost our creator CE (especially when he was interested) completely, in his place we have a Mish Mash of Bergwijn & LoCelso both in their 1st season neither with a particular specialised position.
    We've got a shocking standard of ball possession and movement in the centre of the park because winks & Dier etc even on their best days are bang average.
    These players aren't gonna magically be made into something they're not and straight away.
  11. Spurporter Well-Known Member

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    We could have Henderson and he would play the same under JM. The ball giveaways are intentional, always on the opponent side for the reason.
  12. Preed

    Preed Well-Known Member

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    Sorry felon but stating the fact at least 20 times in the last 4 days is not just stating facts it’s bleating and covering ones back.I am so disappointed in his attitude and did not want the detractors to be right about him as he was my favourite to turn us round but he should get on with the job as best as he can until the transfer window although I think his attitude will stop players wanting to join our club
  13. Felon82 Well-Known Member

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    If you're asked by a dozen reporters what went wrong about the same match then it's the same answer , he won 3 on the lead up to Leipzig & Chelsea wasn't saying this then.
    Leipzig are a good side and how many times even with our best players have we gone to the bridge and played abysmally ????
    The football hasn't been great for way before JM got here I don't know what fairytale land some people were in , couple this with the loss of Son & Kane + CE even if off boil he was our creator a lot of the time.
    Would Eddie Howe be transforming this lot into an expansive attacking side etc?
    When chips are down u have to be pragmatic JM has no choice or depth to much else with.
    He needs this season and a summer window plus a bit more before proper judgement can be cast
  14. THFC Guest

    I like Rafa and think he would be a great shout actually....Allegri is available and has proven success with players and expectations like ours (although I’m not sure if his style would work or not so it’s a bit unknown).

    To be perfectly honest, I don’t know who would be best for us at his stage but I just want someone who doesn’t put 10 men behind the ball and that isn’t afraid to change things quickly if something isn’t working. Also someone who can look at where players feel comfortable playing and adjust tactics/formations to fit that rather than choose a style and stick to it no matter what the performances are like.

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  15. Preed

    Preed Well-Known Member

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    Your missing my point felon .i am not saying any one else could do better I don’t really know .I just expect less bleating to the press and a little more us against the world and some positivity.The rest of the division will be loving his negativity.when did you hear the Norwich manager making such negative remarks
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  16. Bazza47

    Bazza47 Well-Known Member

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    The thing is though Palmover is that we’re in the here and now and he has to deliver with what he’s got, not constantly bleating about what he hasn’t....
  17. Spurporter Well-Known Member

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    Don't worry P reed. Just watch JM keeping his mouth shut next presser. No sense to shed tears in front of his fellow Portuguese, whilst Norwich and Burnley are the ties Spurs must win with or without bullets in the gun.
  18. Felon82 Well-Known Member

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    He has clearly said he's proud of his players and their efforts numerous times but he's also alluded to the fact we're toothless.
    The reason we're toothless is down to the fact we've lost our only 2 world class players who are also our only 2 consistent goal scorers that have carried this rather average side for longer than when JM arrived.
    Pre Mourinho since 2018 Kane & Son have made up for 62 of our goals which is lagging behind Pool 111, City 95 and even Arsenal 73 by some way, now take them goals away from the side and we're left hoping Alli & Moura can fill the void.
    The fact of the matter is the squad is a shambles and is lacking quality and depth in abundance.
    Faced with all this I can't believe people are seriously digging out tactics or performance currently.
    The blame solely lays on the owners and previous regime.
    Last edited: February 25, 2020
  19. THFC Guest

    I understand and agree with what you are saying to a certain extent however how is it possible that sides like Sheffield United, Wolves and Burnley are so close to us on points and play better football than us? They have no world class players but their style is to to attack (each in different ways granted).

    They all have thin squads lacking quality and depth yet the way they play has them in a similar position to us. I would say without a doubt that what we do have available is still better than each of them....

    We are not trying to play well with the players we do have, instead we are dropping really deep then playing punt and run.

    That is why people, including myself, are not happy with JM or the tactics we are using.

    I also fully agree that the blame is with the owners but for me it’s because they haven’t invested in areas we need and they appointed a manager who is renowned for his defensive set up.

  20. Felon82 Well-Known Member

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    Sheff utd have been a real surprise this season they play very much as a team and work their socks off with the limited set up they have , that's credit to the manager and the players mentality and attitude.
    Wolves have quality they back their manager who is proving to be a very good manager who sets up his side well to play good football.
    Burnley are basically Stoke so I'm not having that.

    How come Sheff Utd & Wolves play better?
    Maybe because the balance to their sides are better and more consistent, their managers have been in charge longer than 3 months and aren't in an obvious transition picked up in dismay and ruins.
    They play like a team and aren't just saved by a particular Strikers goals papering over cracks, they don't have soooo many individual errors in them, they don't carry bang average passengers in the side, they don't think they're better than they are and turn up from the 1st whistle mentally ......

    The list is endless, but I really don't think people realise just how bad our squad is individually and then collectively, there seemed to be a theme that when we were playing well (3 seasons ago) that we were punching above our weight better than the sum of our parts .... The thing that has changed is its aged and got weaker.

    The Sheff Utd highlighting is a great example of a team isn't full of stars, they don't think by just turning up results are theirs they are fearless and go at it if you play them you know you're gonna have to fight for anything.
    Now compare that with the lethargic snail pace passing we try, where there's no movement because players can't be bothered to move, the blind alley running from the likes of Lamela Moura Alli and then the sulks when they aren't in the game, passenger Winks the sideways pass master who puts the fear into No1 on or off the ball etc

    The 'squad' is a shambles, the 1st team is a shambles it's gonna take a while to breathe life back into it.
    To put the brunt of this on JM is insane.

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