The recent past

Discussion in 'Tottenham forum' started by Jesper, February 21, 2020.

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  1. Jesper Active Member

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    If at all possible then I believe it might be a good idea to get closure on the recent past and move on from where we are. I am not sure if it is possible to do so, however, the only way to know is to try.

    My opinion:

    In the season 2017-2018 there were some signs that possibly a manager with more tactical nous was needed if winning trophies were to happen. The signs were small, it might have been only a blip so I can understand why drastic action was not taken.

    The season 2018-2019 was not (in my opinion) blessed with great football. Due to luck (or Kane for people so inclined) the league results early in the season were good. Luck ran out or maybe something else happened and the results started to (in my opinion) match the performances. Possibly maybe someone at the club got concerned but as the CL results were good then maybe it was decided not to rock the boat and take drastic action which might affect the CL results. Luck (or some other factor) was not favouring Spurs in the final and the final was lost.

    At this time maybe there were two factions:
    -results people who only saw the results
    -football people who saw the performances

    If there were such factions then maybe the results guys won out and the manager was kept on. Come this season. Big investments were made in players. Then the Newcastle match…. No pressure by any Spurs player on the Newcastle ball-holder allowing him time and space on the ball which he used to find the new record-signing at Newcastle all alone and un-marked. He was given time on the ball and used it to score. For me that was the time I started thinking that this season might be baaaad.

    Performances after were mostly bad, players seemed to lack direction and the results often matched the performances. Then the Bayern Munich match…. Outplayed and the manager at the time rolled the dice and hoped lady luck from previous CL-season would save the day. Lady luck does not like being taken for granted so an hugely embarrassing loss. For a while then it seemed to me like the team was managed by a walking dead. The contract was terminated and a new manager came in.

    Would I have liked it if something had been done sooner? Yes. But at the time the decisions that were made appeared reasonable or at least not completely crazy to me but in the end the decisions turned out to be wrong. The people who would have done this differently, it is impressive that you knew what was right long before it became obvious. All credit to you.

    Is there any way to possibly get closure on what was and move on from where we are?
    And if it is to be discussed could it possibly be in one thread instead of having comments about how the club is run in every single thread?
    As is I won’t see the posts about the recent past anyway so for me it really does not matter. But for the ones for who wants to discuss it would it not be easier to have and follow the discussion in one thread instead of spread out over multiple threads?
     
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  2. Felon82 Well-Known Member

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    Not when people are slating JM (after 3months) for the absolute mess he inherited that he's trying to sort out because it's still very relevant to the current state of affairs.

    It's ridiculous that people are trying to govern what others think and want to say in an open forum.

    You can't dwell on the past and want closure yet we still have regulars bleating on about the 90s but that's ok as long as you don't get bored or agree with it?.........

    Jesper I'm glad someone else is writing honestly I am and I respect your opinions but come on people will read the thread that's posted and comments and post what they think is relevant or valid with their backed up instances/events that's the whole point.
     
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  3. Jesper Active Member

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    Hi Felon82, I think we are in agreement on many things.

    I agree, people should not try to control what others write or think.
    I agree that the squad is unbalanced and that a striker probably should have been bought.
    I agree that it is not fair to judge Mourinho already. He's well paid and one of the reasons why he is well paid is that he came into a bad situation which he is in the process of improving.

    Your passion for the club is great, all clubs want supporters with that passion. I wish I might have more of it but on the other hand I am happy being who I am so :)
    (some have in the past said that who I am is an arrogant a$$h0le, my apologies if that word offends, still I like being who I am and there are others also like who I am so I might not change much)

    For now what I will try to do is to try to open up a match-thread (on the day or the day before) for every single match for the rest of the season. By the looks of it then it is at least 14 new threads, hopefully it will be more. People who want to discuss things which (in my opinion) aren't relevant for the specific match might find it difficult to follow their (in my opinion) separate discussion through the 14+ different threads.
    It is up to them if they want to try to discuss that one subject through the 14+ threads or if they'll want to keep their discussion about that one subject in one thread.

    So I'll un-ignore you and my apologies for what I wrote.
    Since I am at times also lazy and if the idea of having a separate match-thread for every match is a good one then maybe those threads can be opened by someone else if I don't do it.
     
  4. Spurporter Well-Known Member

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    I think from business point of view Levy did very good by replacing Pochettino with Mourinho. The club will have a few years of typical Mourinho circus at press conferences, which will keep attention to the club. Attention is very important for attendance and the revenues associated with it. Whilst Mou's football is very much outdated compared to Klopp-Pep-Santos, the current Spurs gaffer is one of the best in the world at it and even if it might not be watchable, it makes an impression that club is in good hands, something Spurs would like to be, since they seem like they never were.
    It was gut wrenching watching Spurs to be obliterated by various teams playing under Pochettino's philosophy, especially Leipzig, much lesser club, but, as I said, the change was made and now is the time to accept the consequences. There will be wins and there will be losses. Both the ugly ones, not Tottenham football, but the hope is the results will come. COYS!!!
     
    Last edited: February 22, 2020
  5. Preed

    Preed Well-Known Member

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    Lovely back slapping chaps but don’t tell me that we aren’t allowed to criticise Mourino because he inherited a mess. The mess hasn’t improved one bit even if we have got more points than we deserved. Today’s performance was once again pathetic until Lamela came on and showed some desire.How can you not criticise someone who continually plays Moura at centre forward.I don’t see any shape to our game and surely we must give Parrot at least a place on the bench.I have said before we have enough attacking talent to improvise an attacking plan but insist on playing a lightweight on his own which means no ball retention and continue pressure on the defence.I wanted Mourino and accept he took over a mess but he still couldn’t persuade Levy to buy a centre forward.I really did expect more organisation than I am seeing and it’s now twice that the idiot Lampard has bettered him and ruined my weekend
     
  6. Thomas Member

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    Mourinho's plan is not working now because given the limited possession we have, the counterattacks fail because we keep giving away the ball once we initiate one. This happens over and over again. Moura is often guilty of trying to get past too many players and giving away the ball or running into a cul-de-sac because he fail to release the ball. He's doing what Lamela used to do.
     
  7. Genevaspurs Guest

    can someone explain to me how Vertonghen was able to stay 90 minutes in the field today? Involved from near or far on the 2 goals of chelsea, he should have gone out at halftime already! How Mourinho did not change the system from the second goal of the blues? Staying 5 defenders and in addition leaving ndombele instead of Vertonghen shows the incompetence of Mourinho to make spurs offensive with a winning mind. Instead, just after Leipzig, he does the same very defensive system for 60 minutes to try to change the face of the match in the last third. well it's ugly and unsuccessful. last Wednesday and today, Mourinho is responsible for the 2 defeats. in addition our game is out of any flavor and om bored! shame on you Mou !
     
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  8. Luckyluciano New Member

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    I'm in agreement that Poch had to go even though for a short time it was fun and maybe staying a few more seasons at the lane might have allowed us to build the team before breaking the bank to build our lovely new stadium etc etc I feel that Jose is slightly hamstrung by the quality that was left in squad when he took over especially now without Kane and Son But I have to be honest I like Jose can't understand why he gets so much hatred but today he tried to rotate his depleted squad and move a few players about and it failed miserably Jan is done unfortunately it's a sad sight to see as for Ndombele looks so weak and doesn't like getting tackled Lo Celso look poor out wide and definitely better in the middle where he can affect the game the less said about Moura the better running around like a loon but and it's a big but if he had finished the only decent chance we made in the 1st half maybe the game could have gone differently but just clutching at straws doesn't look like its gonna get much better for quite some time
     
  9. THFC Guest

    I apologise for the negativity in the next few paragraphs. I have supported Spurs all of my life and will continue to for the rest of it. I love my club and always will however that performance was just atrocious....we need to stop blaming injuries and missing players because most teams are having the same issues. We just made a terrible Chelsea side look good due to our formation and attitude and there is only one person responsible for those decisions.

    1) 5 at the back - terrible decision and shows the wrong mindset from the first minute and allows anyone who is slightly attacking minded to go at us. Didn’t suit what players we did have available at all and sitting back with 10 men behind the ball, we still couldn’t defend/keep a clean sheet. It’s clear as day that we do not suit the 90’s lower league style of football at all.

    2) I have to take back my previous comment that Ndombele should start, he shouldn’t. Quite frankly, not only can he not last more than 30 minutes effectively but he doesn’t look like he wants to be out there. Also Bergwijn is 100% not a forward and looked completely out of place. Should be played in his natural position - it was worth a try with him upfront but did not work at all.

    3) Again, another one for me to take back as I have said previously due to injuries he should start upfront....Moura cannot play as a CF, he attempts to take on too many players then either gives the ball away or falls over. He actually adds nothing when he starts so should come off the bench and give Parrot a run...at least he is actually a CF

    4) I don’t buy that JM is a tactical genius, one bit...he is a manager that was great 10 years ago but football had evolved and has left him behind and although we may have picked up some points, our playing style has gone backwards 10 years. Any good sides press quickly from the front and hit people on the break at lightning speed - we don’t do anything at all quickly other than a 50 yard hoof

    5) I’ll say it now and it doesn’t matter what happens for the rest of this season, I stand by it - JM needs to be replaced by a more modern day, forward thinking manager that wants to attack teams. I would much rather lose 4-1 but play well and attack than 2-1 sitting back and punting the ball forward from the back every time we get possession. Anyone who is trying to remain positive, see if you feel the same after we get knocked out of the Champions League and slowly start sliding down the league, which we will if we continue to play like we did against both Chelsea and Leipzig. Just remember, we may have won points under JM but they have come either last minute against bottom sides or undeserved snatched points which is not sustainable.

    6) The best thing we can hope for is to finish above Arsenal as there is no way on this earth we will finish top 4

    7) I cannot believe we have given JM such a long contract, should have had a get out of jail clause for the end of this season - Max Allegri would be a better bet and actually wants to learn English/manage in the PL
     
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  10. Spurporter Well-Known Member

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    No, Spurs need that Leipzig coach - Julian Nagelsmann.
     
  11. Preed

    Preed Well-Known Member

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    Great post Thfc can’t disagree with anything you say .I also have supported spurs for over 50 years and always will but at the moment we are not even entertaining which we have always prided our selves on even when we were struggling in past years.I hate to say it but we look like a Tony Pulis team at the moment but not as good. Soon the crowds will diminish and then the real problems that Levy has caused will come home to roost
     
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  12. THFC Guest

    Just a couple of things with that statement:

    1) he isn’t available
    2) yes he has done a great job but he has only done it for one full season at one club. Last season everyone was saying the same about the Ajax coach. I would prefer someone that has done it year in and year out in a club with high expectations and handling players with egos

    if Allegri is a no go, we should try and hunt Brendan Rodgers from Leicester

     
  13. palmover Active Member

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    For JM's approach to work Spurs need to sort out Lb, Rb and Dm.
    Dm and RB, spurs need 1st team ready quality players to come in the summer.
    LB, Davies has not been any better than Sess, however, Sess as a lot more upside and all the ingredients to become a good attacking LB. If Sess can't make the grade then a 1st team quality Lb needs to bought.
     
  14. palmover Active Member

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    I'll cut Jm a little slack, Spurs played Sun, Wed, Sat that's a tough schedule especially with an unsettled squad. Verts turning his back on Giroud shot would be unacceptable for u11's. If he had continued forward he would have blocked it with his foot left foot.
    Jan is looking slow in every aspect of the game, and surely his mind is now on where his next career move takes him.

    I would like Sess to get a run of games at Lb and i would like to have a look at Tanganga play in CB either with Sanchez or Toby. Coys
     
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  15. Jesper Active Member

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    What were other peoples timelines?
    When did you start thinking that the results and/or performance of the previous manager have to improve or he might need to be replaced? How long was the probationary period for you? When, if ever, did you start thinking that he's had time enough, it will not improve so he has to go?
     
  16. Felon82 Well-Known Member

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    Is this opposed to the 'style' Poch had built over 5 years that couldn't buy a win , passed the ball about mainly in our own box and saw us get bullied by Brighton and humiliated by Bayern?

    The football under Poch for the last year n a half was atrocious , that's the level that has to be measured against seeing as it's what was inherited.

    So is it worse than that?
    Points etc would indicate not , until JM has a chance to properly build his own side he's playing damage limitation football due to the sheer piss poor management of the squad prior to his arrival
     
  17. Felon82 Well-Known Member

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    Considering Pochs 1st season was measured by most on the fact he'd picked up a circus from Sherwood in 6th place. People seemed to have patience with him for that season and a few games into the next , if my memory serves me right even Poch highlighted a particular game where it was make or break for him and we won then things clicked from there (for 2 seasons).
    In comparison JM inherited a circus in 14th has had 3 months and people are slating him.
    Pochs 1st whole season we limped into 5th with a horror show defence and some sporadic results.
    I lost faith when we didn't sign anyone and Poch began a self protection fan expectation management style and completely took his eye off the ball. The Brave talk turned into Cryptic talk and his last 2 n a bit seasons were a steady decline descending into a cliff edge drop , he'd lost his mojo and had nothing else to offer than bizarre over rotation no style and a series of thumpings getting out played and ostracized from squad.
    People seem to be stuck in the 2 seasons we did play good football 15/16 & 16/17 and are trying to compare but it was on his watch he let it get to 14th without an away win in a year etc
    I've not been excited watching Spurs for ages it's more of a chore these days due to chronic lack of investment in the end product.
    I can however empathise with JMs situation , inherited a mess, 2 main consistent (being the operative word) goal scorers out and a patched up old injured or bang average thin squad to utilise is what it is.
    Unless he's owed a miracle then by hook or crook he's gotta make it work.
    We're still in shout of top 4, still still in shout of facup, have a punchers chance in the CL besides all the odds.
    I'd love to see what people suggest he does otherwise or what they'd do , do they really look at what we have and think it's expansive n should play so?
    Currently Alli the wanna be insta gangster is our top scorer who has never been consistent at anything other than going missing.
    Parrot? I personally wud like to see him given a chance but 1st Poch now JM not thinking he's ready? Might be some weight to that.
    Any other suggestions ? ........
     
  18. voiceofreason Active Member

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    I thought that exactly. When he did it , I thought of how John Terry managed to keep going for so long with limited skills at Chelsea In that situation he would have thrown his whole body to block the shot. Unfortunately Jan has lost his speed and is now showing he doesn’t have the do or die, needed for a centre back
     
  19. Bazza47

    Bazza47 Well-Known Member

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    Let me start by saying I’ve never been a Mourinho fan, period. I think tactically he’s old school, has had modest recent success (apart from filling his bank account with his payoffs) and would have been my last choice to be our head coach.

    To his credit he’s got us to 40 and, before yesterday, a point off 4th. He’s averaged pretty much the 2 points a game needed for CL, particularly in this season where all around are failing. Sure he’s been unlucky with injuries, but that’s not unique to us. And DL didn’t get a striker for him in January.

    However..... let’s start with yesterday’s set up, 5-3-2.....really. We looked rigid, never pressed until the last 15 and long balls have become the order of the day. Painful. That’s Mourinho’s doing.

    There are many PL sides whose squad, as of this weekend, is less good than what we have, but they don’t sit back, with rigid lines, looking to soak up pressure. Eventually you will get breached. That’s Mourinho’s doing.

    Playing Bergwijn and Moura up front, without trying Parrott at some stage, that’s Mourinho’s doing. Add Davies at left back, rather than Sess......it goes on.

    Perhaps I’m one of those who have become too used to our lack of success, preferring that we play good football, and lose games we should have won, than deploy long balls whilst bypassing our midfield to get wins. Name the performances that stand out as being special......not many. I’ve never passed up on going to watch at The Lane this season so many times. That’s sad.

    I’m 65 years a Spurs fan, so mostly downsides over the years, but I certainly don’t see JM taking us to new heights. There are fixtures coming up in on the run-in that will definitely show how good he really is......watch this space.
     
  20. Genevaspurs Guest

    Totally agree with you Bazza ! We have no choice to give JM and the team our support until the end of this season but DL has to be informed in a way or another that the supporters are not happy with his decisions ! COYS !
     

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