Some Poch Perspective

Discussion in 'Tottenham forum' started by Felon82, October 21, 2019.

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  1. Felon82 Well-Known Member

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    So whenever critique or questions are raised regarding Pochettino we have a list of inane statements that are wheeled out -

    "look how far we've come"
    "Enjoy the Ride"
    "We were mid table before Poch"
    "Remember the 90s"

    So I thought for perspective it only right to have a quick recap and scrutinize just how far this 5yr journey has gone since Pochettino arrived against 5years pre his arrival. (Anything longer is irrelevant really)

    Below is our last 10 seasons finishes points total and what the CL qualification total was for that season to help with overall perspective.

    09/10 4th 70pts CLQ 70pts
    10/11 5th 62pts CLQ 68pts
    11/12 4th 69pts CLQ 69pts
    12/13 5th 72pts CLQ 73pts
    13/14 6th 69pts CLQ 79pts
    14/15 5th 64pts CLQ 70pts
    15/16 3rd 70pts CLQ 66pts
    16/17 2nd 86pts CLQ 76pts
    17/18 3rd 77pts CLQ 75pts
    18/19 4th 71pts CLQ 71pts

    Now pre Pochettino we had finishes of 4th 5th 4th 5th 6th with points ranging from 62 - 72 mark, Pochettinos finishes 5th 3rd 2nd 3rd 4th points ranging from 64 - 86.

    Now it must be taken into consideration that between 11/12 and 13/14 we had 3 seperate managers all dealing with big established player sales and going through differing transitions.

    Pochettino took over a side which despite having had the Bale money totally wasted and a managerial change with Dim Tim at the helm still finished with a respectable 69points and essentially inherited a core of young players (9 of which started Vs Brighton a couple weeks back)

    Now in his 1st season Pochettino rightly set about chucking out the bad apples and the aging players to instill his philosophy. 1st season 5th and 64pts, respectable for a 1st season in charge while settling in.

    15/16 our supposed title challenging season where no one turned up , Leicester won at a canter , we finished 3rd on 70pts 11 points off top.
    For perspective 66points would've been enough for top 4 that season such was the collapse of the established top 4.

    16/17 now this was unquestionably our Peak season under Pochettino , a genuine Title challenge , 86points , top scorers , best defence , incredibly unlucky to not finish top and played some scintillating football.
    It was a real coming of age of the potential great balance to the side, energy, enthusiasm etc.

    17/18 (the window of incompetence)
    Now in fairness we were dealing with Wembley etc.
    But with a side that previously finished 2nd with only Kyle Walker making way it wasn't as if the squad wasn't capable & confident finishing 3rd with a very respectable 77 points.

    18/19 (the window of negligence) world cup fatigue, no signings, stadium uncertainty we limped in 4th by 1 point on 70pts the seasons short comings masked by a CL run that found us somehow by hook or crook in the Final.

    Pre Pochettino we were overall knocking around the 4th/5th mark averaging around 68-70points , with Pochettino we're knocking about the 3rd/4th mark with 70 & 71 point totals before and after this current sides Peak of 86 & 77 point totals.

    No one is arguing he hasn't done a good job , the 16/17 season was the closest we've come to the title since 61.
    A Champions league Final no matter how we got there is nothing to be sniffed at as an achievement.
    But it's quite clearly been on the decline from 2 seasons ago almost that far we're back to where he originally picked the reigns up.

    The argument that he's brought us consistent CL football has to be put in perspective by point tally's/positions where Redknapp should have qualified twice, AVB would have qualified 3 of Pochs 5 seasons with a 72 point finish and Sherwoods tally beaten by 1 or 2 points in 2 of Pochettinos CL qualification seasons.

    It's a myth that we were mid table non entities before Pochettino , 1 season of his was a true step forward 16/17 where all plaudits were deserved but before and since then it's either samey but circumstance has made it look better or its steadily regressing.

    Now my problem is that its looking very bleak , he's at the point where AVB was , what Tim had and what Pochettino inherited only without a core of genuine potential to rebuild with.

    The football as I have to keep mentioning is awful , 2019 is actually much worse league wise than any of his predecessors would've been allowed to get away with.
    The squad is a shambles and needs major not minor surgery.

    Where's it all going?

    Let's get real over this allegiance to Pochettino at what is becoming a case of supporting him over the results/performances/club and the current situation.
    He had 1 exceptional season beyond that he's nothing special , he's not magic he's no better than Redknapp or AVB who were both flawed and working with hands tied aswell against a more established top 4 and arguably Pochettino has had the best all round settled squad of the lot.

    No doubt there will be the "who do we replace him with that will do better?" Argument, which is a credible 1 but only due to the inept parasitic ownership.

    But we currently have a badly underperforming squad that looks devoid of any direction other than free fall , there's very little effort , atrocious football displays , poor tactics etc this is the managers job something Pochettino is failing at badly and for some time now.
    Surely any half decent organiser with a plan or set up would be better than a manager currently making the likes of Brighton and Watford look like top quality opposition consistently?
    Last edited: October 21, 2019
  2. Cheshuntboy Guest

    This business of denigrating Spurs' past in order to make the present look better drives me mad, and it seems to be pretty much all the ENIC/Levy/Pochettino admirers can offer in defence of the current regime. Felon's piece demonstrates conclusively that Pochettino didn't 'transform' the club, and I think he's being too kind in saying that we're back where Pochettino came in; we're sinking back towards the Ramos era , apparently holed below the waterline!
    Felon82 likes this.
  3. Big fran Guest

    Reminds me of the Martin jol era when he was sacked. Finished 5th and unlucky not to get top 4 lasagne gate etc. Expected to push on but a poor run came from nowhere and sacked at half time. Not getting walloped every week but dropping points nonetheless and wasn't given time to turn it round as levy acted due to a need for top 4 finish. I can't see poch given any more leniency from levy. If he feels the gap to top 4 is getting to big the axe will fall. Think the thought of a club like utd buying his contract out is keeping him employed by the skin of his teeth. I've never seen a top 4 manager in the prem era turning this round. Remember thinking title winning Chelsea would turn a corner but they never did.
    The big question who next.
    I'd like mourinho. He's been labelled boring but I remember Chelsea leathering sides at times. He plays to the teams strengths. Traditionally he's always needed money but I think he would be able to separate the wheat from the shaff on what seems like a split dressing room. Defensively I'd back him to tighten the back line up in particular the gaps between full bk and centre halves. Also be more compact when out of possession less susceptible to counter attacks. Of course he comes without need for compensation and a short term contract with the option of longer could suit both parties. He could attract players.

    Another I like is allegri again out of work and available but given his language barrier and inexperienced in the prem would need time to implement his style and dare I say philosophy on the squad so this season would probably be a write off.

    The third option for me would be unpopular in Eddie howe but his sides to play high tempo, pressing attacking football that was pochs trademark in the seasons you mention. Given that he is young enthusiastic and driven maybe he could get us back to this style as pochetino has either asked his players not to press anymore or the players just don't want to do it for him anymore.
    Felon82 likes this.
  4. Felon82 Well-Known Member

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    To further this Point where people play the he's had his hands tied victim card in the same time from 09 - 14 £270mil was spent on players , from 14 - 19 £437mil has been spent on players yet the 1st team mainly consists of inherited players.
  5. Cheshuntboy Guest

    You've got to try to find some humour even in our current state, and I must admit that the thought of Levy and Pochettino both keenly following La Liga in the hope that ZZ will get the boot, and save either (or both) £32 million tickles me - I wonder how bad things will have to get before Levy pulls the trigger, because I really can't see Pochettino walking unless there's an even bigger salary on offer, and the chances of that are surely fading with every poor performance. Time for David Pleat to be dug-up and dusted-down, just in case!
  6. palmover Active Member

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    6 seasons in football is a long time, not many prem managers will last that long because of the high demands, Mp has been going for nine seasons (espanyol/southampton) and he looks like he needs a year out to refresh his ideas.
    Look at the spurs squad it's overloaded with AM's, yet it doesn't have a quality DM or right back and is lacking a speedy wide player.
    The team of 16/17 was the only team Mp put together that had true balance and he still won nothing.
    Imo Mp is a fitness coach and not a manager.
    Felon82 likes this.
  7. Felon82 Well-Known Member

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    And once you crunch the numbers his limitations are heavily exposed , he's spent £437 million just to regularly start with 7 - 9 players he inherited who were already playing in the 1st team back then.

    Yet still we are unbalanced , still we lack depth , still we lack quality.

    Then there's the con that he is good with youth , winks is his only genuine protégé and look how incredibly average he is , he made Dacoure look like peak Yaya Toure on Saturday FFS.

    Pochettinos solitary plan only worked when the whole team pushed up and pressed the life out the other side , weve just completely stopped doing it and he has absolutely no other plan we literally just invite the press ourselves now and deal with it suicidally.

    He's got to go
  8. Cheshuntboy Guest

    Well, you can only beat what's in front of you, and Red Star certainly aren't the team they once were, but why can't we play like that against Watford or Newcastle? I suppose performances like tonight's or first half against Palace give hope that all is not lost, but then it's proverbially the hope that kills you. Anfield next!
  9. Preed

    Preed Well-Known Member

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    As someone who criticises when we are bad tonight I will say this was an improvement all be it against very poor opposition.At least the midfield balance looked better and looked to go forward instead of sideways .Could this be because winks was not in the team.Davies looked a big improvement on Rose and I must give praise tonight for the much maligned Lamela. The better balance in midfield allowed Son andKane to play as we want them to.A promising few minutes for de celso.Before the rose coloured raise their heads again after a silent period wait until the Liverpool game before thinking we have magically turned the corner
  10. Big fran Guest

    Miles better formation. Kane dropping into the no10 to create space for runners alli lamela and Sonny. Whys it took this long for penny to drop tho.
    Hope this can be a watershed moment from poch removing want away bad eggs from the dressing room and no game time for CE either. No going back now. Let's integrate sessagnon lo celso tanganga parrot and look to add to full bks, a Centre half, def mid and another attacker ASAP.
    Atal, chillwell, Joe gomes timo werner.
    notnats likes this.
  11. voiceofreason Active Member

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    Didn’t see the match. Just got lots of dings on my phone for updates. Preferred theses songs over the last cl match

    aogns that there is a team in there after all?
  12. Felon82 Well-Known Member

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    All that can be taken from that game is a well needed confidence boost , least we played with a bit of purpose n shape not a lot to ask for is it?
    The opposition were very average.
    Pool will be a completely different kettle of fish.

    5 goals will help towards the GD in the group aswell.

    Also note how much better we look without winks stealing a 1st team spot.
  13. palmover Active Member

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    Winks is a good technical player, however, it is hard to find his best position because he is not a goal scorer and he doesn't have great long passing range and he is defensively moderate. Against watford i thought he slowed the play down, because he turns 360 to secure the ball before moving it on. At present he is a decent squad player, however, needs to add something to his game to become a starter.
  14. Felon82 Well-Known Member

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    Winks is a busily doing nothing type player put it this way if he wasn't from the famed academy and played elsewhere would anyone be pushing to buy him???

    Davies is not brilliant but he's a damn sight more interested than Danny stealing a wage rose who I hope was dropped altogether and not just rested for Pool.

    Was good to see some positive movement from the forwards last night and N'Dombele looked good.
    Gordon Mc likes this.
  15. Guesty Guest

    .....nurse.....nurse.....he's out of bed again!!!

    Winks should not be in a Spurs starting X1
    Gordon Mc likes this.
  16. Jesper Guest

    From this article:
    “For me, when you sign a player, despite the amount you pay, with the profile of Tanguy Ndombele or Giovani Lo Celso or Ryan Sessegnon you need minimum one year and a half, or two years,” said Pochettino.

    “Look at what happened with Son [Heung-min] or [Moussa] Sissoko. They started to perform in year two, year three. Today the market is the market. You cannot judge the player because you paid some kind of amount. They need time to show their real quality.”

    That indicates something to improve.
    Not all signings will be good immediately or even at all. However, buying a player and then paying salaries for a season and a half before their performances match the fee and salary is simply too long.
    Son didn't perform as he didn't get to play.
    Sissoko.... Well he played and while he seems to be a great professional and possibly also a great guy I am not convinced he should be a regular starter.
    Lamela is finally coming good so maybe patience with a player is a good thing.

    For me then I'd agree with what Levy might be thinking, why spend a fortune if a newly bought player can't be integrated into the team for a season and a half?
  17. Felon82 Well-Known Member

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    6 fecking years ?

    Sissoko is still massively questionable aswell

    Both cost a lot of money at the times of their transfers + wages/big contracts being stolen and both have been overall a massive flop
  18. Big fran Guest

    I'm sorry but that's absolutely bollocks. City bought rodri for less than ndombele and settled in no problem. Also slotting in at centre half. Sissoko was already acclimatised to the Epl. And if that is the case signing players from another league who I agree will need to adjust but nowhere near a year plus,good pre season and a couple of month. Top players will hit the ground running. Why turn your nose up at an absolute o brainer in tielemens who at 40m looks far better than anything we have. His skill set for a no 8 is far superior to that of ndombele sissoko and probably lo celso.
    Gordon Mc and Felon82 like this.
  19. Cheshuntboy Guest

    Pochettino obviously sees minimising expectations as a key part of his role at Spurs, and it appears to have worked, given how little many supporters still seem to expect in return for their financial and/or emotional commitment to the club. Thus no trophies are to be expected during the endless process of building the team, no worthwhile contribution will come from new signings, however expensive or highly regarded at their former clubs, and, above all, no blame for failure attaches to him or Levy, because everything takes limitless amounts of time, and we've all got to be limitlessly patient. There are so many examples of players who disprove Pochettino's mantra that it's boring to start listing the, but how about Salah and Van Dijk from tomorrow's match for starters? And how about Klopp's Liverpool as a team completely transformed and winning things well inside the five years of Pochettino's abortive Tottenham project?
    Gordon Mc and Felon82 like this.
  20. P reed Guest

    What a load of tosh this manager talks saying it takes a year And a half for new signings to settle. in.I remember Deli Ali coming From a lower division and flying early on.Nobody told the Liverpool players about this or Chelsea a hat trick from their American import today after only about 3 months.It would help if the new signings actually got some playing time instead of sitting on the bench.Good players adjust to most environments .All pochetino is doing is giving the players an excuse and covering his own back and admitting that his coaching is not all it’s cracked up to be.
    Gordon Mc likes this.

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