Rudderless Spurs

Discussion in 'Tottenham forum' started by Felon82, May 10, 2021.

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  1. voiceofreason Active Member

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    Made a mistake of popping in here again! What a surprise to see the same negative glass « half emptyers » slagging off Southgate and the England team. Absolutely gutted we lost but we made semi final World Cup and Lost on pens in Euros! but of course it’s because we had a lucky draw, easy opponents , useless players being lucky.
    Try focusing on the “support” part of supporters now and again?
     
  2. Felon82 Well-Known Member

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    We were absolutely woeful, Southgate is an awful manager, has no plan, no style, no idea.
    All his substitutions were shocking and late and uninspiring.
    He left 3 youngsters arguably not even good enough to be there to carry the can for last 3 of the 5 pens.
    Absolute farce.
     
  3. Spurporter Well-Known Member

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    In a few words, JG, can you explain why do you think Spurs are ABLE to play Bielsa/Pep/Poch football and be successful in this league?
    I think Spurs do not have personnel for it. We can do it , but not successfully. All we can get at very best with what we own is Leeds results (they are younger, but you get my point). To be successful playing like that we need to spend 400+ million at the minimum.
     
    Jesper and Felon82 like this.
  4. Any manager can play attacking football… some understand it much better than others but mostly it just takes courage and nerve

    The youth coach did so at the end of last year… we won 4 out of 6.. scored a lot of goals… and showed some flair

    Our lineup is on another level to Leeds… they just happen to have a very good manager… we don’t

    I’m really not that interested in Spurs at the moment… we would have to be one of the most poorly run clubs of note
     
  5. Felon82 Well-Known Member

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    Beat them 3-0 earlier in the season at a canter under Mourinho.....
     
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  6. THFC Guest

    Cant agree with you on this topic im afraid….the team did well and the players stepped up, they followed the instructions and formations they are given and got within a whisker or managing something special. Southgate on the other hand set us up far too defensively and tried to defend at all costs rather than go for a second which was a terrible decision. His substitutions were poor, the timing of the changes were poor and to bring on 2 players in the last minute of extra time to use them as penalty takers was never going to work. Add to that, letting Sako go fifth knowing the pressure the poor sod must have been under, it was unthinkable really.
    Just in relation to the players, hopefully young players have learnt that taking silly little run ups from odd angles generally means you miss.
    The reason we lost that game is the same reason Spurs have been poor for the past few seasons….some decent players, terrible man management skills and terrible levels of tactical awareness which the players which the players executed to perfection.

     
  7. Spurs ceded 64% possession and 18 shots to a Championship side at home… yeah it was a riveting afternoon… that’s what I go to the football for… to watch the opposition pass the ball around 250 times more than us

    The law of averages naturally played out in the return fixture
     
  8. England remind me of Spurs… haven’t won anything of note since the 60s… never the favourites for anything… good enough to flirt with success but ultimately fall short… and then deluded fans lose their heads over why the team isn’t actually better than what it is

    You’re correct about the final… Italy may be superior but the tactics were cowardly as England allowed themselves to be completely bossed at home in the biggest game for 55 years… at Spurs I think we’ve seen enough of that these past two years… unfortunately more is coming just around the corner
     
  9. Guest Guest

    Italy was a breadth of fresh air. They press high, are very direct and attack without fear of losing possession because they have a solid defense. England, on the other hand put me to sleep in most of the games. They are more concerned with losing possession and conceding a goal than creating chances and scoring. Southgate has got attacking players but chose to play Trippier. Ultimately the better team, better manager and better football philosophy won.
     
  10. Preed

    Preed Well-Known Member

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    How do the press keep coming up with the stories that our new director is on the verge of a sensational signing for our club.Apparently Kounde has turned down a move and he will not be the last.We will be starting pre season with the rubbish we had last year as nobody seems in a hurry to buy our wage stealers.How long before reality hits the supporters that nothing has changed only the titles of the people who are supposed to bring in new blood and an attacking brand of football.
     
  11. Spurporter Well-Known Member

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    You can play defensive football and win and can play offensive style and lose. It depends on how good you play the style. There is absolutely no advantage of either style. Germany played what football against Southgate? What was the result? Oh, maybe it was just a luck? No, it wasn't. Argentina beat Brasil on Saturday with what style? With Messi of all people. With DiMaria and, of course, with LoCelso.

    If you ask me, England played very well in their first final since Charlton Brothers one (I watched that game; on black-n-white TV it was). Did Italy score from the open play they were praised so much for? No, they scored from the dead ball, from the ****ing corner. They scored the goal a defensive team should be scoring. England was impenetrable for Italian attack the entire 120 minutes. Italy could do nothing, except for a lucky pin ball chaos at that corner. And Italy draw not because of their attack, not because of Kiesa, Immobile and Co. They draw because of their central defenders. Chialini and Bonnucci were able to outplay England forwards on all the counters England tried. I know you hate defensive plays, but those were just a masterpiece.

    Player for player Italy was worse than Germany, France and England. They had, however, the two best central defenders of all. Those allowed Italy to draw with England. After which Italy won a coin-toss-like shootout. So much for attractive attacking football… You didn't watch Italy against Austria, did you? Italy could have lost. They looked quite mediocre against good defensive team.

    Repeat, that was a draw, not a convincing victory the true champions are known for.

    Spurs can do well with defensive style. With personnel currently at defence they will not be able to play an attacking football. Poch was trully blessed with Toby and Jan. Those two could have won Euro 2020, should it was in 2020.
     
    Last edited: July 15, 2021
  12. Preed

    Preed Well-Known Member

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    Sorry Spurporter but you only see what you want to.Yes Italy we’re not to good against Austria but you forget England were putrid against Scotland and should have lost.All round Italy were the best team in the tournament and England like Tottenham last year wasted attacking talent ie Foden Sanchez and Grealish because of the cautious approach by Southgate
     
  13. Jose's Ghost Guest



    England played poorly in the final... it was a home game you realise? they began well then went downhill from there

    Italy 66% possession... 19-6 shots... hit almost 400 more passes... it's called getting bossed... and you enjoyed that?

    Italy have some good players... but importantly they have an exceptional manager. As a result 34 games undefeated... one short of the international record (held by Brazil and Spain). Clearly there is something of inherent value in their style?

    Exactly what defensive team does history wax lyrically about? the Greeks in 2004? Give me a break... the two approaches aren't remotely of equal merit... neither practically nor in terms of aesthetics

    Defensive football may be situationally appropriate but as a philosophy it is not sustainable... and frankly is an affront to watch. It's predicated on ceding possession and space to your opponent... if both sides play equally defensively you have an absolute non event... and associations have duly gone out of their way to disincentivise such rubbish for the sake of the game. It is also attrition... if you sit deep and invite pressure all day the odds are good you will eventually crack... whether by deflection or not is irrelevant. You've seen it numerous times this season with Spurs and you saw it again in the final... extrapolate that over a year or two and you will understand why bores like Jose never last

    Thankfully only the under privileged and the fearful like to play this way these days

    Yet Spurs have just gone and welcomed another expert douche on board... its not going to end well
     
  14. Spurporter Well-Known Member

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    I enjoy Spurs winning. Regardless how. Statistic obviously always favors the attacking side. No one ever won anything with statistic. There are plenty of overwhelming possession and shot number advantage cases when the attacking team lost. Argentina could be hard to watch, but they are the champions of America, while Neymar was left in tears. If team wins no one should care about spectators or pundits or posters on the boards. Finally, England could have won 1:0 and no one would praise the Italians for the entertaining style they lost with.

    Italian clubs won everything with such a defensive stile a few decades ago.

    Sustainability is irrelevant to the conversation. There is no evidence that one style is more sustainable than the other. Defensive football may only be unsustainable with respect to your support.

    Spurs may be heading to the midtable, but it will have very little to do with style of football they play. The wages must be doubled for this club. Then you will see the better players. Regardless of style of football. If you can't attract the performers by UCL, money should be more of the attractant. That is how Man United rebuilt with the defensive manger. After Mou.
     
    Last edited: July 16, 2021
  15. Jose's Ghost Guest

    For every one or two matches you show me where a team has won despite an unfavourable statistical disparity I will show you 10 where the exact opposite is true... so enough of the foolish talk about the value of statistics. They are a metric of performance and performance equates to results more often than not

    I'm not sure why you're confused... I haven't changed tact... but you shouldn't be conflating the deep lying long ball junk we've been serving up these past two years with the cautious slow build up historically synonymous with Italian football. They are markedly different styles... the Italians have no issue playing with the ball nor do the Argentinians for that matter... even when forced to defend in numbers as they were against Brazil

    Defensive counter (the football Spurs specialise in now much like a bottom feeder club) is absolutely unsustainable and the evidence is abundant so who knows what you're talking about. I've mentioned the top three international sides in history just by chance... you won't find a defensive long ball side approach anything like that

    There are plenty of reasons why... I've outlined a few. It's absolutely not popular at big clubs for a reason... it not only bores the life out of fans but good players as well... see if you can figure out why

    If you're only interested in results then perhaps you should stick to just reading the newspaper... most Spurs fans though want to be entertained and actually watch good football every other Sunday

    My expectations for that this season are suitably low
     
  16. Spurporter Well-Known Member

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    I doubt it. Results are primary.

    No one was talking to play Burnley defensive style. I was talking about defensive style when Son and Harry scored for fun back in December. The defensive style we beat very much defensive MUFC 6 to 1. That was the style. I am sorry if you didn't like to watch Spurs then.

    In order to play an offensive style, you must have the best defenders (contrary to common belief). In order to play a defensive style, your forwards must be top notch. Spurs have great duo of Son and Kane. It wasn't Mourinho fault that Son lost his form at 2021 beginning and sent Spurs down the toilet by that.

    Top teams do play an offensive style. That is because they can afford to buy the best defenders. The teams that play offensively with suspect CBs are the suspect as a team. Germany and France were out early at Euro and Liverpool quickly went down last season once they lost Van Dyke.

    Spurs had top CBs under Poch. That allowed for offensive style. Poch went to PSG and... voi-la, he didn't win with his great Paris forwards. He went to buy an aged CB now, but one of the best in the world still.

    Spurs cannot afford to buy a good CBs. They can only get an unfinished product hoping it will grow up into top performer. Rondon is an example of it. Or grow from within, like Tanganga. You cannot play an offensive style with defenders like that. It doesn't matter who is the manager. Poch timely figured that out and desided to remain in Paris. For that reason no offensive minded coach showed any interst in the job.
     
    Last edited: July 16, 2021
  17. Jose's Ghost Guest

    I appreciate the effort but you seem awfully confused. Football has nuance but it is not exactly rocket science... you shouldn't overcomplicate rather simple things as one fellow here is exceptionally prone to do

    I'm not going to debunk the obvious repeatedly with you... but you seem like a nice fellow so one final time just for you

    Spurs played attacking football successfully at the end of last year... where were you?

    It wasn't any great revelation... everyone knew it possible (given Spurs clearly had some very good players) hence the universal frustration with the lack of ambition from the previous dud... and yes Spurs were pretty much Burnley under Jοse sans the set pieces

    You single out his best result and fail to mention the rest of his work. I wonder why? Spurs were 13th in goal attempts when Jose left... all the goals dried up... because as I've already mentioned... defensive counter is UNSUSTAINABLE over a period of time... it is a form of attrition that wears out not only the opposition but your own squad as well

    CBs aren't the centre of the universe... you are truly confused about this... no CB has broken the transfer record in 100 years. Indeed out of the top 50 all time most expensive transfers only 7 are defenders... so what on earth are you talking about? The most talented players growing up will naturally end up playing further up the pitch... because if you've ever played football you will know it is much easier to make a tackle than it is to beat someone with the ball at your feet

    Top defenders like van Dijk are highly valued because not only are they exceptional defenders but they are exceptional on the ball. Are you aware Ramos has scored over 100 goals in his career? Outrageous numbers for a defender and a major part of what makes him so good... players like these are rare

    So it is rather simple... talented sides play with the ball... talentless teams would rather not... unless you have a craven cynic like Jose in charge... so afraid to lose he dare not make a mistake in possession and concede a goal

    To be perfectly clear... you play with the ball because that is how you score... and controlling the ball is also the best form of defence. Pep will be happy to explain this to you... it is the reason he could get away playing dwarves like Mascherano and Puyol in central defence... ie. Barcelona rarely had to defend

    I think most Spurs fans are realists (perhaps not one or two here)... we're good in the grand scheme of things but not in a position to win anything of note... so Spurs fans expect to be entertained at the very least... it is intrinsic to the history of the club and football at the end of the day is nothing but entertainment

    Fonseca is an unabashed offensive coach at about our level... he would have been a good hire compared to Nuno... but no instead we've gone with another cowardly defensive counter specialist... he may well have some short term success (we have some good players after all) but it is going to be boring as hell to watch and will not endure for any great length

    So yes I'm not impressed with the club presently... we're at our lowest ebb in well over a decade... and it is about to get worse

    Enjoy the off season
     
  18. Spurporter Well-Known Member

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    That is wrong. The most sofisticated position is a holding midfielder. Then goes a CB. Then goes a stricker. FB is after that .Attacking MFs and goalies are at the end of the chain. The most money is payed for strickers, I am sure. Why? Because they score goals. Goal scoring is a team effort, but those with money did not play the game, like most supporters, and do not know. Most money should to go to most gifted footballer, yet it is not the case.
    I guess your usage of the word "confused" is identical to "deluded" some others use in here. It is not more convincing, not by much anyway.
    As it was well documented here, I am a Poch fan. I like his football. I do not think we played offensive style under Mason. It is not as easy as turn a switch.
     
    Last edited: July 18, 2021
  19. MikeN Guest

    There is only one solution to our problems and I think most supporters have finally realised this.
    Levy and ENIC have to go. Simple as that. As long as their toxicity affects the club we will NEVER win anything. You could bring in the greatest manger in the game and trying to work along side Levy would inevitably result in failure.
    Only today I read the chances of Southampton negotiating with us was ruined by Levy when he bought in Hojburg. So no chance Danny Ings will be captured ,which would have been an excellent buy.
     
  20. Preed

    Preed Well-Known Member

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    I know yesterday was only a friendly and we played lots of untried youngsters but Dier captain and Winks playing whole game is not a good sign,Also Ali and Bergwin look shot.Why are we not signing players and getting rid of WinksDier Aurier etc post haste.We will start with same wage stealers and I think Levy will be surprised at the reception the team will get if we don’t sign at least 4 quality players.It is not the current managers fault but I fear he will caught up in storm of abuse because of Levy.Southampton won’t negotiate with the idiot over transfer of Ings because they don’t trust him and I fear this will be repeated and prices inflated
     

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