Matchday discussion

Discussion in 'Tottenham forum' started by bigfran, September 14, 2018.

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  1. Hurrikane Harry Member

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    I have never posted on this site before recently joining. I have posted on pretty much all the biggest Spurs sites over the past twenty year. And yes I was one of the first to call that IF ENIC turned down RA before Chelsea, it was a massive retrograde step for the club, Perhaps the biggest sliding doors moment in the clubs history for a hundred years or so, certainly a huge one.
    It was then I started getting involved in the long running forums battle of the billionaire benefactors debate. And week by week more and more of the ENIC defenders throw in the towel often by their silence, and rarely admitting how hopelessly wrong they got it.
    They in however small a way have played their part in holding back this club by supporting ENIC
  2. Hurrikane Harry Member

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    I would also add Ive never been one for hurling abuse at our owners players or managers
    Im a loyal Spur of over 60 years standing and the interests of this great club are paramount for me. ENIC have done some good things for this club, so I try to play fair and recognise that. But overall its better they leave and thats been the case for a long long time, maybe since that fateful day RA rocked up in London and changed football forever.
    I don't like the name calling and vile personal abuse that is now being aimed at our owners and of course many of our players that have been similarly abused by our own 'supporters' over the years. But I recognise that its in the nature of many football fans to say things they wouldnt normally say in other parts of their lives
    Football is indeed a passionate tribal sport and emotions run high. But I try to keep my passion for Spurs on the positive side. To me thats paramount in the stadium,. On the forums, Twitter etc then of course criticism is rightly part of the debate. As long as it stays legal fans have the right to go OTT, but I try always to write in a moderate way, though doubtless fail at times :mad::eek::Do_O
    Last edited: May 23, 2023
  3. The Conte Guest

    You are a very moderate fellow Hurrikane… and that’s much appreciated… but that’s also why you should realise that there’s a very amiable middle ground between City’s model and ours… neither extreme is good… and Abramovich was a criminal of ill gotten wealth so I’m glad we never got involved

    That said…

    I doubt there are any who have any love for our owners… but rather many who have given them a pass these last 20 years since the club has made definitive progress… though at an incremental snails pace

    However it would seem painfully obvious now that progress has reached its end… the next few years look very bleak… that’s not being alarmist… we are literally back to square one and so far off the pace

    The landscape has changed… all top flight clubs have financial clout these days… and our investment company has been left behind

    To be honest… they have never known much about football… and one would have to say they got very lucky 10 or so years ago when they made a few very astute signings… but those were the exceptions not the rule

    Ask yourself? why on Earth did we loan Danjuma? why did we buy Spence? our world class manager didn’t want either of them… you won’t see that rubbish going on at a top club
    Hurrikane Harry likes this.
  4. Preed

    Preed Well-Known Member

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    I must point out that I agree with Conte about who signed Spence and Danjuma.Apparantly this was either Paratici or Levy but don’t forget our world class manager did want Porro Peresic and Lenglet and they were just as big as a mistake as will the purchase of Kulu who is now showing why Juve let him go.The club is a prime example of how not to run a succsessful football club.Sack a manager because he was given no choice by Contes comments but to have no plan in place apart from Stellini and Mason is nothing short of suicide.Now over two months without a proper manager and still some fools on this web think Mason is a viable choice as manager.Since the sacking we have gone from a good chance of 5th to 9th and the points gained in that period would have us relegated if duplicated over a whole season.Maybe we will go out on a high by losing to Leeds and letting them keep a clean sheet.I for one am looking forward to the Ashes
  5. The Conte Guest

    Porro was a good buy for the system at the time… he’s shown some talent in just a couple of months

    Perisic was a sensible buy on a free and he’s had some moments but at 33/34 he has proven to be too old to be a star in the Premier League

    Lenglet was never Conte’s first choice… there were bigger targets that didn’t get resolved… he was the compromise… not the worst player ever but too slow

    Kulu was brilliant last season… what has happened to him this year? young players usually improve over time… not regress

    I think overall the transfers have been relatively good the last 18 months… but there’s too many average players at the club… this is a very slow unathletic and unskilful side

    Add Davies Royal Dier Hojbjerg Skipp Sessegnon Doherty Sanchez to the above… throw Lloris and Son in with them as well now

    These are not impressive footballers

    Then consider we’ve got 2 guys who cost 40-50 mill who are out on loan

    We’re talking quite a **** show here
  6. Preed

    Preed Well-Known Member

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    What system was Porro good for .The one that left us outnumbered in midfield every game.I know Stellini tried to change to a back four with disastrous results but that was not the system just **** poor players that we possess who don’t have the intelligence to adapt and as you say snail like pace.You talk about the sh*** we have on loan and I think the overall value those players is nearer 100 million which shows how good our scouting is.It seems that Levy has finally accepted the computer based system for vetting possible transfers that other clubs have been using for years.I believe it costs money which would explain why we have not used it before.Could this be the week that we finally sign a new manager in Mr Slot
  7. Hurrikane Harry Member

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    Fair comments the Conte about moderation and our owners, much appreciated
  8. The Conte Guest

    Porro was good for the system (or some slight variant of it) that won Conte 5 major league titles in 7 years before he came here

    The system was never the problem… surely that is obvious now
  9. The Conte Guest

    And yep you’re right… I meant to say 2 players who cost 40-50 mill each

    How is that they can’t get a game in this awful side?

    If you added up the cost of everyone on loan it would be well over 100 mill… remarkable really considering how poor our current squad is
  10. Guesty Guest

    does that mean we regularly spend big money on players who can't hack it in the PL!?!?

    what we hope for is that the manager is backed......which we know they aren't.....

    What would help is if the supporters accepted some mediocrity while a rebuild with lesser known (cheaper) players who are of the required quality to fit the manager's team shape.... and rid ourselves of the sh1te £40-50m ones
    ....... which will never happen.....too many believe we have to be Man City tomorrow
  11. The Conte Guest

    Well no one is hacking it in the EPL… whether they’re here or out on loan

    Problem is the club can’t seem to consistently identify suitable players whether they cost 10… 20… or 50 million pounds

    Either that or any good player that does come here is quickly infected by the malaise

    Obviously doesn’t help that we change manager every 12-18 months… eg. Poch liked Ndombele… Jose liked Reguilon… Mason liked Winks lol

    No rebuild is guaranteed here whatever the approach… so I hope you have plenty of patience for what is to come… mine is in rather short supply
  12. Hurrikane Harry Member

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    Im delighted to read we're considering the moneyball data led approach. To thats more important than a DOF. If we get relevant experts in, it wont matter much if at all, if its X or Y in control. The model is what matters, you could probably run most if it by AI.
    In fact the less human interference the better would probably be the case. Stop so much of this nonsense of X not playing Y because it was Zs purchase. Or Y not buying A because B has a blind spot for A according to Y, and the cost is too much.
    Crunch the numbers, get people who are good at that, plus AI. Not recruiters who think they can spot a player and leave us with one expensive flop after another.
    FFP is tightening up, we need to sharpen up.
  13. Hurrikane Harry Member

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    Big blow re Slot, I think more than ever we need the Moneyball approach now, and concentrate on a coach not a big name manager.
    Sure if a Nagelsmann comes along and wants to work within that system, great. But has to be system first, IMHO
  14. Preed

    Preed Well-Known Member

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    Get real we need a director of football first that understands the game first and who may be able to use the data given and maybe can pick a managerIt is fast becoming a Mason only man left walking.Disaster on the horizon.I just wish we would give the job to anyone and stop this shambles.I would even take Rogers over Mason
  15. Hurrikane Harry Member

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    I suggest you get real Preed and stop posting personal digs. Ive tried to ignore your inflammatory remarks, but if its a slanging match you want, come on down for the pensioners show down:p
    Im tired of our DOF and manager approach over the past five years or so. I want us to go down the Moneyball route, yes really
    Maybe someone like Carrick would be happy to work in a Brentford/Brighton style framework. Managers like Frank and Di Zerbi have done so. I dont mind whether they're called coaches or managers, as long as they respect and endorse the system
    Last edited: May 25, 2023 at 11:29
  16. The Conte Guest

    But Spurs have been playing moneyball these past 20 years… just not backed by any meaningful numbers other than what the accountancy department suggests

    It’s an interesting idea… but I’m not sure such analytics readily apply to football… baseball is a very structured and simple game… easy to statistically parse… football on the other hand is very fluid and has many confounding variables
  17. The Conte Guest

    Nagelsmann is my first choice… but beyond that?

    I said it before… Postecoglou would be a good hire… absolute no nonsense ruthless football purist… has won everywhere he has gone… ex copper… doesn’t tolerate fools

    He’ll get rid of every single one of them if he has to
  18. Preed

    Preed Well-Known Member

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    What do you mean Hurrikane personal digs.Reread my post and you will see that I agree we need to use the technology but we need a director of football who understands this first.You really are reading into every post that disagrees with you as a personal attack.Much more important things to do.I mentioned the use of technology at least 2 weeks ago.The only view of yours that I totallly disagree with was that you were happy withMason and that is ante to about95% of the fans.Without different views there is no point in a website
    Last edited: May 25, 2023 at 12:17
  19. Hurrikane Harry Member

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    We disagree there TC, I dont think weve had a Moneyball structure ever. For a while its true we were picking up bargains. But I never saw that reported as part of a comprehensive Moneyball data driven approach. Dele was scouted by David Pleat apparently, for example.
    Certainly for the past four years I dont think we've been MB. More like money out of the window as we've lurched from one flop to another
    Brentford and Brighton have proved MB can work in football, also apparently Liverpool have a strong data driven approach despite having a big name manager
  20. Hurrikane Harry Member

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    I'm really not Preed, you told me to get real. Thats your prerogative to use such language if you wish, but I dont see such an approach as constructive
    I just disagreed with TC, neither of us are seeing it as a personal attack, due to the moderate language used
    Also you are wrong about Mason, reread my posts. I said if he won the last four games I would be happy with him, he didnt, so I'm not. You're constructing a classic strawman argument there, and using it to undermine my judgment. I wondered why you kept referencing Mason, often seemingly with regard to me, now I understand
    Anyway, I dont want to get into arguments with your good self, who I respect as a long time Spur.
    You're absolutely entitled to your belief re DOF, and Im glad we agree on the importance of technology
    But for me the technology and the data must now take precedence. Of course we need experts to run the system, call one of them DOF if it helps.
    I dont even know if Brentford and Brighton have a DOF, what I do know is they have a data led approach that stays consistent regardless of manager
    It may not work for ever, it may not work at all for us, but I say give it a try.
    And yes I may be completely wrong in advocating such an approach, but its my honest belief its the best way forward
    Last edited: May 25, 2023 at 12:47

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