Matchday discussion

Discussion in 'Tottenham forum' started by bigfran, September 14, 2018.

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  1. Cheshuntboy Guest

    It doesn't help Spurs in the slightest, but the post-match reporting of every game seems to work backwards from the result, in other words a win is very rarely described as undeserved daylight robbery, even if the victory was courtesy of a last-minute own goal following a ninety minute battering, and today's match was no exception; we didn't deserve to lose, and West Ham landed two sucker punches and little else, but the anti-Mourinho media is loving our plight, and happy to pile on the misery. That certainly doesn't excuse Mourinho's continuing inexplicable team selections, especially in central defence, or his failure to get any attacking purpose out of the team until we're a couple of goals down, but I think we're in a classic death spiral, with nothing going our way, and no obvious alternative to seeing-out the season with as little further embarrassment as possible, and then embarking on another project under anyone willing to sacrifice their reputation at Spurs - perhaps a ten year one this time, since the fives have got us nowhere - sorted!
     
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  2. Jesper Active Member

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    Yep, the central defence situation is strange and not in a good way. I prefer to have little to no rotation of the CBs. Mourinho of old used to keep it that way, he's changed. No pairing have shown themselves to be superior, maybe he is still deciding. Would have liked to see more of Rodon.
    & I am not a fan of the lopsided FB attack, I prefer to have a DM drop down into a back three when needed and have two attacking FBs. Dier used to be good at doing that.

    Attacking-wise then I miss the set-pieces of Eriksen and Trippier but of those then only the indirect free-kicks of Eriksen as his direct free-kicks were not great. Bale might be needed to step up,
     
  3. THFC Guest

    You are right in terms of Levy and Enic financial support which is the same issue that caused the demise of our previous coach and hamstrings this one...but....the current coach still should be doing more with the players we have. From not being consistent with players or formations to bizarre starting selections. We have regular starters who quite clearly don’t deserve to start..take the first goal, we can claim a foul but having 2 x CB who both watch a cross land on a CF in the six yard box isn’t good enough. It’s plain as the day is long that neither Dier or Sanchez should ever be picked yet we start them together?

    The manager will no doubt blame everything but himself and the usual JM fan club will blame the players inherited/levy/Enic but as proved by Chelsea this season, when it’s wrong, it’s wrong and the only way to fix it is to be decisive and make a change. The change instigated by Chelsea has sparked an improvement in performances from the exact same bunch of players and that is something we are in desperate need of. I am not 100% sure I agree that we would be having the exact same issues we have currently with another coach (unhappy/unbalanced squad with poor team selections/formation and poor overall approach and tactics to each game) but we won’t know until it’s too late based on the weird loyalty that ‘used to be good’ seems to be getting from Levy and a few of those on here.

     
  4. Jesper Active Member

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    I looked at that first goal again. Players stopped playing and waited for the whistle. At this level they should know to play until the whistle. The result was plenty of time on the ball for Bowen, more than enough to pick a pass. Defenders hate running towards their own goal while trying to make a block, the risk of an own goal. Maybe that is why they didn't try harder.
    Declan Rice (I think it was) on the other end dared and managed to clear it.



    So for me the first goal was due to lack of pressing on the one putting in the cross. Possibly Lloris could have gone out from his line and attacked the ball. Only some limited blame on the CBs.

    The increased attack late in the second half was probably a combination of increased attacking intent and West Ham deciding to just hand over possession and defend deep in numbers.

    The attacking play on the right appear to be mostly about the inverted winger and overlapping RB. Hopefully Bale can be the inverted winger as I am not sure if Lamela has the quality. Inverted winger withour overlapping full-back is in my opinion not a great idea.
     
  5. Preed

    Preed Active Member

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    All this why and why not about today’s game when the discussion should be about the fact that our points per game this season is the worst since Ramos and that includes Sherwood and Villas boas and look what happened to them.Bet Lampard wishes he had such an understanding employer.Yes the players are devoid of any confidence but how often is Mourino going to throw them under the bus.
     
  6. THFC Guest

    If you get a chance, watch it again with the volume loud...watch Dier let the ball sail over his head then plant his feet and turn...at the same time he shouts “away” but it’s far too late to call that. His next move should have been an immediate turn and attempt to block the danger behind him but he stood and watched the first attempt and left the rebound completely unchallenged for a tap in.

    You could say Lloris should have come but the ball was whipped into the gap making it a tough call as he would have seen it very late after it missed Dier and he probably expected someone to challenge the attacker at that close range.

    We definitely should have pressed the cross and stopped it coming in but for me the 2 x CB were at fault for not challenging either the first or second attempt.

     
  7. Preed

    Preed Active Member

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    By the way Thfc united still winning waiting for the collapse you predictedd
     
  8. THFC Guest

    Let’s be clear...I said they had dropped points in them and still think they do. 13 games to go and their remaining fixtures include: Chelsea, City, West Ham, Leicester, Spurs, Liverpool, Villa and Wolves as well as a couple fighting for survival in the bottom 3 (Brighton, Burnley and Fulham).

    Let’s see where they end up before calling me out (again).

    I still think they will be fighting for 4th place but happy to admit I’m wrong when the season ends if they are still in 2nd.

     
  9. Preed

    Preed Active Member

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    Even fighting for fourth is more than we will be doing and did you notice one of their rejects scored against us today
     
  10. Spurporter Well-Known Member

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    I agree. We had a solid game. Out of late losses Spurs were much better. We could have used a better goalkeeper to obtain, perhaps, a better result. I didn't like Lloris in first goal. So the better team lost... We didn't have that for awhile. I do not see a death spiral yet. Let's hope it will turn to the better. May be Bale can do more, he was pretty good. We simply do not have any other choice. As far as results are concerned it is hard to get any worse.
     
  11. Jesper Active Member

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    I don't know, it is a close call. Possibly I am too nice to the CBs since I once upon a time played in that position. For me then I'd say that Lloris could see the ball from when it was hit by Bowen and I'd preferred it if he had taken charge and just gone for it. Flattened Dier and/or Antonio in the process.
    Judgment call so who knows, I agree the big problem was the cross. Höjbjerg didn't press as he had to cover for Reg who had been taken out & it looked like he lost a second or two waiting for the whistle. Son might have lost a second or two waiting for the whistle & possibly not being sure if Höjbjerg would be closing down.
     
  12. Guesty Guest

    On the first goal........
    In the middle of the pitch I think the ref blows a foul on Reggie.... but where it was it was down to the linesman. but perhaps Reggie was a bit too soft there.
    Having said that..... not too sure I'd point the blame at Son.... or Hojbjerg...or CBs.... or Tanganga... or Lloris......personally I'd blame the lot of them. You have to fight for everything in this league. The players need to be hungrier to win games....at all costs. bodies on the line. too many of them have an 'after you' attitude
     
  13. Preed

    Preed Active Member

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    We seem to be discussing the pros and cons of the defeat to West Ham and who was to blame as per usual instead of of talking about thee real malaise in the club which appears to be a total lack of direction and no fight .Because of the lockdown I have watched a lot more games than I would probably have done and even the bottom clubs put in shifts and fight tooth and nail even when they are faced by superior teams.Other teams put in blocks when we just stand and watch.Our best centre half is now 34 and therefore gets rested fairly regularly.Leicester have a centre half who is older but does not get rested because their manager knows you need a settled defence.I want us to have a defence that is not changed every game because this helps no one.I think Aldy andRodon are worth a go and stick with it how else can Rodon get experience.Am I the only person fed up with the bull that 34 year olds can’t play 3 hours a week try a proper job.Now we have the total pass the buck from the manager who despite having the best coaching methods can’t get a tune out of a squad which has at least 14 international players.He has totally thrown them under the bus this week and I know if I was a player involved I would question whether I want to play for him .If they are not worried about his comments then they really are total idiots and don’t deserve to be earning a living that most of us can only dream about
     
  14. Felon82 Well-Known Member

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    There's been an interesting stat knocking about of JMs 1st 50 games against Pochs 1st 50 games and last 50 games

    It reads

    JM 1st 50 games 82 points
    MP 1st 50 games 85 points
    MP last 50 games 85 points

    Now as clouded n rose tinted as some wish to paint the past and rewrite history no 1 was calling for Pochs head after 50 games or before he'd done a full season with us.
    That's specially reserved for JM.
    Even during Pochs last 50 games people were calling it a blip and that he didn't need to go.
    But again JM has taken this club backwards and needs to go.

    Just shows the levels of hypocrisy in this fan base when it comes to fairly judging someone.

    Poch said it needed a painful rebuild (something that he & Levy are totally culpable for) it did it still does yet people want to paint a picture it was a top top side that was inherited.
    Combining Pochs last 50 to JMs 1st that's 100 games of pure mediocrity which also mirrors Pochs 1st 50 which by no coincidence is between when an actual team of 11 quality players came together for a 2 n a half year spell before they aged/injured or got sold off n what's left fell off a cliff in form.

    The fact is the squad level has dipped n it's not gonna pick up any time soon with out proper investment.

    So JM can go you can celebrate and therel still be the same issues the same type of performance and results that have become the norm over 100 games

    Only we may see Kane etc leave because they don't have time for another project
     
    Last edited: February 22, 2021
  15. Preed

    Preed Active Member

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    Felon I was no great fan of poch but his first 50 games were entertaining at least not the word I would use for Mourinos football and at no time did he profess to be the best coach in the world
     
  16. Felon82 Well-Known Member

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    But his 1st 50 games weren't tho , we had a horrific defence that shipped 53 goals in his 1st season that only changed when we brought Toby in and it transformed Lloris Jan Walker & Rose who were haemorrhaging goals before his arrival.
     
  17. Felon82 Well-Known Member

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    All great teams have a solid Defence and a reliable spine.

    By 15/16 we had a young less error prone Lloris, the best CB pairing in the League, the best WB pairing in the league a defensive enforcer in Wanyama another solid CM ball carrier in Dembele a playmaker in CE and a spritely Kane, complimented by Son & a Spritely Ali.

    It was a perfectly balanced side and it's only a suprise to those who want to pretend miracles were performed by just making top 4 when the state of the league had never been so bad.

    It was a great 11 and the small squad supported it for 2 n a half years, as I said age injury sales loss of form all crept in and as that spine has been taken apart so did Pochettinos ability to coach the side and now it's been dumped on Mourinho to take all the blame who suprise suprise can't get it playing like it was when we had much better players.

    You can't genuinely say player for player if u picked your best 11 out of the current mess it's better or level with 16/17 ???
     
  18. THFC Guest

    I think you are missing the point?

    When JM arrived, like him or not he came with a reputation of building teams off of a solid defence.

    As with any managerial change, the expectation is that thanks to his experience, we would see an improvement in the immediate area of his speciality by utilising his skills as a coach to train our players both individually to become better and as a unit.

    We are well over a year now and aside from not picking a consistent line up, we have if anything gone backwards because the style which he has employed to improve the defence (which involves conceding possession and dropping two defensive banks in at the edge of the box) just is not working.

    From strange player selection to constant changes to the line up, when you add that to the style of letting other teams have the ball and then seeking to counter quickly, his tactics are proving week in and week out to be dated and allows other teams a fast start (which means we are playing catch up in every single match).

    We may have had similar points tally’s to previous years but at least in previous years we presssed opponents into mistakes and didn’t give them time to pick and choose passes/create opportunities then try to stop conceding by packing the width of the box with six defenders and two pendulum style full backs. The pendulum system works well if you have players who follow the system but when you have FB’s who constantly push forward without getting back, your system is flawed due to the CB’s or holding MF’s having to cover the space (which is what Sissoko does so well).

    What that all means is we are trying to employ a system that concedes possession (in most cases) but we are not employing the best available players to succeed. Dier is not a good CB (hence why Poch pushed him into the MF to try and meet a need that he had in that position..if Poch had PEH, Dier would never have played). Add Sanchez and Aurier to that mix and you have 3 defenders that can’t defend and are not positionally very good.

    This all means that we are now looking worse than before to watch and have removed the fear of the press to opponents which seems to be giving them all the confidence to beat us. That is a fail from JM and unless he uses his world class coaching skills and staff to improve it,there will only be one outcome

     
  19. Felon82 Well-Known Member

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    This is a myth too , we've not been camped in our box conceding possession every game so why pretend that's what's happening, we deserved at least a draw n had the lion's share of possession Vs West Ham again 2 defensive mistakes n lack of finishing cost us.
     
  20. THFC Guest

    We had a lot of possession in THAT game...what about the other 22 (not counting WBA) this season. Add to that, the shape remains the same...two banks dropping off...we only had a lot of the ball because WH like WBA decided to sit deep as well

     

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