Irrational hatred and nonsensical bar setting

Discussion in 'Tottenham forum' started by Felon82, December 29, 2020.

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  1. Felon82 Well-Known Member

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    We're always giving the ball away cheaply and being dominated by the other midfield that's why we're camped in own box.
     
  2. Felon82 Well-Known Member

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    So I'll ask again where are the upgrades on this many players?
    Because unless we can name upgrades on all of or at least most of them then how do you genuinely expect there to be improvement ?
     
  3. Jose's Ghost Guest

    Jose's mode is not only well established but more so self-evident

    If there was some concerted effort to play out from the back... to press from the front... to protect the ball... then it would be blatantly obvious (as was the case with the previous manager)

    The current team displays none of those traits. We win possession... we break... quickly. We lose possession... we drop back... wait for the mistake. Rinse and repeat. It's a tactical choice

    I can't help you if you don't know what you're looking at
     
  4. Jose's Ghost Guest

    The 16/17 Spurs side produced the best league season in close to 60 years.

    Did it ever occur to you that the manager extracted more from the whole than the sum of its parts?
     
  5. Felon82 Well-Known Member

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    So il ask again you personally if Pochettino was working miracles with that team and there's been no upgrades from that team then where is the expectations that we should have improved and got better from?
     
  6. Felon82 Well-Known Member

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    2 systems the previous coach used, in the 2nd & 3rd season the high press worked because he had the personnell and youth to implement it but he completely ran them into the ground till they were walking wounded.
    Then he went to the playing it out from the back which essentially meant 45 passes to get to the half way line before either going backwards again or losing the ball , this was from 18 onwards and progressively got worse as our better players gave up and most left.
    Till it became an unrecognisable circus which is where the current Manager has had to start n build from.
    Which is why after 13 months and peanuts to spend anyone that's bemoaning how great we were and how we can't accept a draw or a loss is being completely disingenuous to the situation and irrational.
    Then everyone expects a brand of expansive football without the personnell or investment to achieve it.

    People have lost their minds completely on this
     
  7. Preed

    Preed Active Member

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    It’s a shame that the discussion between Felon and Thfc/Jose’s ghost will go on indefinitely without any resolution because both are so sure they are right.One ante Pochetino and the other ante Mourino.I suspect it will only stop when Mourino vacates the seat as he will on his past record.most of us want to win a trophy but just as important is ENTERTAINMENT which we have not had in spades for 3 years.I have said it before who scouts for us because he ain’t any good
     
  8. To be better than 16/17? that would mean winning the league.

    That is actually quite possible this year. No one is particularly good... we should be seizing our chance.

    To answer your question... I don’t see a major difference between the two squads at all (if anything we have better depth now). Quite a number of players remain... they’re more experienced now... the majority that have left flamed out.

    The backline was better then but we are better up front now.

    Dembele is the greatest loss but aren’t you the one who said he never did much?
     
  9. Pochettino’s Spurs tenure ran its course... just as Jose’s did at Chelsea in 2015 and United in 2018.

    We were better than the 14th place he left us in... we’d just secured another top 4 and our highest ever placing in Europe. Equally so Chelsea were better than the 16th place Jose left them in.

    If the previous manager were still in charge... producing the same results/same performances as the current one... I’ve no doubt you’d be calling for his head.

    I’m not calling for Jose’s yet... just some perspective.

    We will most likely be in the Carabao final... let’s see what he can do.
     
  10. THFC Guest

    Do you actually read what is being said? I’m not ante JM just as much as I’m not pro Poch?

    I preferred watching us under Poch because at least we had a style that other teams feared, we played some attractive football and no there was no public shaming of players. I also disagree with some of the comments around the level of backing he was given to upgrade the squad...there are lots of comparisons being made about squad quality but Poch was severely restricted on signings at a time we were building the stadium and still delivered some amazing results just as JM has been restricted (the difference is he knew what he was asking into when he signed his £15m a season contract a year ago or he wouldn’t have signed it). Poch asked for players and didn’t get them...this was called out by many as having a lack of backbone against Levy but the same arguement is being used to protect JM and blame Levy, why is it one rule for one and a different for another?

    With JM, as a character he is great and when we are picking up wins the football is kind of bearable....when we start dropping points or losing cup games such as Antwerp it’s a different thing altogether because we currently play with no style at all and no possession which basically hands the ball to others teams then invites attack vs 10 man defence. Our current intention which is hit a long ball and break as a unit quickly, works on occasions if the long ball finds our player but usually it’s a foot race and a throw in that results.

    I wholeheartedly disagree that Regy isn’t better than rose and PEH is no better than Wanyama because both are massive upgrades. Is Rodin better than Dier, maybe, we havent really seen him to know but Dier isn’t great so why not play him? Then we have signed Bale, who is to blame for that? He should have been way better than anyone previously but as at RM is always injured so there really want any point. Who asked for Gedson & Hart, was that JM or the scouts?Finally Vinicius is way better than Jansen so that’s an upgrade but why won’t we play him?

    You want entertainment but have blown hot and cold on JM from previous threads so where do you actually sit...I respect both Felon and Jose’s Ghost because they have opinions and have stuck with them.

    I don’t agree with some of what Felon is saying, not because its wrong but because IMO the view is distorted by an anti Levy stance and the Poch reign (especially the end) is being tainted by that view without balancing the issues Poch faced (which to me is the exact same issue that is being used to defend JM - lack of money/squad quality). There are also lots of things a felon states that are true for me such as I would take a cup/top 4 finish with the terrible entertainment that is on offer to try and change our mentality of nearly men to winners. The big question with this though is how long do we accept the awful football that is on display before we have enough. Will Felon still feel the same if we get knocked out of the cups and finish 7th?

     
  11. THFC Guest

    Question - Do you think Man Utd fans would prefer to have JM or OS based on performances and results? OS hasn’t won a thing but has them picking up results now and playing reasonably well, JM managed miracles with trophies at the expense of his players and any kind of style while spending £370 million on new players (so no mention of not being backed in the transfer market please)
     
  12. Preed

    Preed Active Member

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    Do you read what is said because I said reggie and Hojbjerg were upgrades .it was felon who disagreed.Nice to know you go back on my old comments and yes I have gradually changed my opinion on Jose as is my right
     
    Last edited: December 29, 2020
  13. Cheshuntboy Guest

    I really don't know what to make of Spurs at the moment; I certainly felt, and continue to feel, that Pochettino achieved all that he was capable of at Tottenham, and that ultimately wasn't enough. I was amazed and excited at Mourinho's appointment, because I presumed that it marked a real change to ENIC's penny-pinching running of the club - why get one of the most successful managers of the modern era unless he was going to be backed to the hilt? Bale's signing puzzled me though - what could a barely-used, injury-prone 31 year old on astronomical wages bring to the party, and I began to suspect that there was no ENIC/Levy damascene conversion, merely a desperate attempt to hide a small-time mentality behind a couple of high profile, but ultimately pointless appointments and signings.
    I like Mourinho, and I'd love him to succeed at Spurs, but my early season optimism has waned, and I'm back to my view of last season, namely that he didn't realise how big a job he'd bitten-off, and the habitual bus-parking looks like a rather hopeful attempt to get any kind of performance out of a group of ill-assorted has beens and never was's rather than a considered piece of long-term strategy. I guess he doesn't think we can beat the opposition playing football, so attrition will have to do instead, and I'll take that in return for a trophy, at least for now.
     
  14. THFC Guest

    I know what you have been saying, why so defensive? I try to take in what everyone is saying because opinions are there to be changed as you listen and learn. Felon is a great example of someone who has a polar opinion to me however some of what he says is true so I have adjusted my opinions on the back of it. To be completely honest, Jose’s Ghost seems to hit the nail on the head with a lot of what he says in terms of what my thoughts are too and as I said the reality is probably somewhere in the middle (JM to Poch discussion that is). As far as performances go, I don’t think there can be any doubt, the way we are playing currently is not good enough and luckily other teams are also dropping points which is masking it a little. We have had a couple of brilliant games but they have been countered by 80% poor performances and either scraped results or lost points. Something needs to change or you can guarantee that at the end of the season if we have won nothing and finished outsid the top 4, it’s a failure and that would be squarely at JM and Levy’s door as you can’t blame Poch for that.

     
  15. THFC Guest

    I think you echo what a large portion of Spurs are feeling...well put

     
  16. Felon82 Well-Known Member

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    Moussa Dembele is the greatest player of all time to have never done anything threatening with a football ever.

    He is still a better player than Winks or LoCelso could ever even dream to be and although N'Dombele has got talent he can't run for more than an hour and goes missing when the chips are down.
     
  17. Felon82 Well-Known Member

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    Name the upgrades then or the same level player that's replaced them-

    Jan/Rodon, Dier , Sanchez massive downgrade
    Rose/Reg about the same
    Walker/Aurrier, Doherty downgrade
    Wanyama/Hojbjerg about the same
    Dembele/N'Dombele downgrade
    CE/LoCelso massive downgrade

    You say about others being more experienced but Dier & Alli are a lot worse than 4 years ago and Toby who is our best CB has lost a yard of pace.

    Dress it up as much as you want that's fact.
    That was the best side we'd had in 60 years and it's been downgraded.

    You downgrade anything and by nature it's not as good.
    Yet you think we should be winning the league this year and others think you can't draw or lose a game .

    That's got to be the height of entitlement and delusion.

    It's Bonkers
     
    Last edited: December 30, 2020
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  18. Jose's Ghost Guest

    Such vitriol for the players yet such unconditional love for the manager? I find it very strange

    Objectively compare the two squad lists... there is no great disparity. Indeed we have better depth these days

    None of the players that have departed were world class

    Walker, Vertonghen and Dembele were all very good... their replacements are decent enough... all internationals... one of them an absolute cut above

    As for the others...

    Eriksen transfer listed in Milan, Wanyama to the MLS, Rose delisted... and so on

    The players that remain are now all at their peak (Toby excepted but he is still class). Whether Jose can get a tune out of them is another story but certainly Kane and Son are better/more complete players now... that's generally how experience works aye?

    So once again ask yourself... is it possible that the previous manager extracted more from the whole? and could we say the same of Jose?

    He is supposed to be the best manager in the world no? with the exception of one glorious day in Manchester I've yet to see exactly why in 12 months

    And yes... when Everton and Leicester sit three points off the top nigh on halfway... you better believe the league is there to be won
     
  19. Felon82 Well-Known Member

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    Vitriol?

    By saying they've been downgraded.....

    It's just a clear observation, the 16/17 side was balanced team of very good players all coming into their peak at the same time they were by no means punching above their weight or miracles being extracted, it was as good a season and performances as it could get.

    We are not of that same level anymore that dipped the minute that season ended with players losing form, walking wounded and overall disinterested.
    This was encouraged by the fact there was no squad bolstering or quality brought in to challenge/keep levels up.

    A steady decline fell into a rapid decline with 1 flukey CL run to the final managing to paper over huge chasms in the squad.

    We were a circus that couldn't pass the ball beyond the half way line or win football matches it was going absolutely nowhere a shell of and inferior side to the one that finished 2nd just 3 years prior.

    That's where we were when JM was drafted in to stop the rot.
    Did he do that ? Yes.
    Has he been backed ? 1 freebie, 1 swapsie, 3 loans, 1 loan/buy, 2 buys all under the sum of £60mil - No
    Has he plugged some of the holes ? Yes
    Are we doing better this season than last? Yes
    Qualified in Europe
    Semis LG Cup
    FAcup favourable draw
    4 points off 2nd currently

    And yet all we hear is doom , we can't lose a game to anyone or draw else it's melt down time regardless if it's Quality sides like Liverpool, Leicester & Wolves.

    Mourinho hasn't even had 1 full season in charge or anywhere near a reasonable amount of investment to actually improve the side.
    Poch went backwards from what he took over from Sherwood in his 1st full season no one talks about that, his job/method wasn't being questioned despite recieving tonkings off Liverpool & City and having 1 of the most calamitous back lines in recent times.
    His 2nd full season in charge was severely blown out of proportion due to the league being an absolute shambles but by then he was actually starting to get some sort of balance and momentum going.

    So why isn't JM afforded this same time frame of patience?
    It's massive double standards driven by an irrational hatred.
    Disingenuously people who argued Trophies aren't important for 6+ years now demand them 'or else'
    They also argue the level of squad is the same despite it quite clearly not being the case - the majority of the best players left the below par average at best stayed and got promoted through neglect/necessity.
    For example If you're happy to convince yourself Rodon is better than Vertonghen then I could understand you're displeasure at what's going on, but the reality is it's a downgrade like all the players I've mentioned.
     
  20. Jose's Ghost Guest

    You're pushing an awful lot of falsehoods here and I'm not sure why

    The league is an absolute shambles now wouldn't you say? we're sitting 7th

    Players don't peak at 23 or 24... the 16/17 squad was the youngest in the Premier League

    You're lauding our Europa progression but disparaging our appearance in a Champions League final? now that is disingenuous

    You're calling Wolves a quality side? but our squad is jack? when exactly did they last finish above us?

    Rodon = Wimmer by the way... who on earth would conclude he has assumed Vertonghen's role? the lad has started one game

    I'll summarise your narrative... if we've been good before it is because we had great players... if we're good now it is because we have a great manager

    Sorry you can't have it both ways... the squads are equitable enough

    Pochettino's time was up... it happens... just ask Jose.

    I imagine he will be exiting in a similar fashion when the time comes.
     

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