Irrational hatred and nonsensical bar setting

Discussion in 'Tottenham forum' started by Felon82, December 29, 2020.

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  1. Felon82 Well-Known Member

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    Remember when it was said that Pochettino was working miracles with the team he had in 16/17?

    Since then Toby Alli & Dier have all gone down hill, Rose Walker Jan Dembele Wanyama CE have all left (correct me if I'm wrong) not a single player has been upgraded on from that quality balanced 1st team that finished 2nd.

    A lot of dross has been bought after a long period of neglect to plug gaping holes in the team.

    JM has acquired 9 players on a budget of £52 million, at best he's replaced Wanyama & Rose, there's been a backwards step in Walker Dembele Jan replacements and none at all in CEs case.
    Alli who along with CE was our only other goal threat who even at top of game blew hot n cold n has been Luke warm at best last 2 - 3 years.

    So If Pochettino was a miracle worker before with a better team then genuinely how can people expect better from an inferior team?

    I'd really like to see someone answer this because it's not a manager that crosses that white line it's the players and if they're a worse outfit player for player than 4 years previous then how can that be the lofty bar set ?

    For a couple years I seemed to be 1 of very few that was critical of the previous regime at how poor a lot of the football was often rescued by a Kane brace or a Son goal but was constantly told I was negative and pessimistic.

    So I dug through some of the results and these aren't all the losses and draws but some of the more woeful ones

    2018 Spurs
    WestHam D
    Saints D
    Newport D
    Rochdale D
    Brighton D
    West Brom L
    Wolves L
    Palace L

    Burnley L
    Saints L
    WestHam L
    Bournemouth L
    Newcastle L
    Leicester L
    Colchester D
    Brighton L
    Watford D
    Sheff U D

    Where we are at now is

    2020 Spurs Draw a game = Nuclear Melt down, "was never like this B4"

    People are in serious denial of how bad we had got and are equally in denial of the rebuild that's currently underway.

    I can't believe that anyone is that stupid to believe a Manager would say to his players give the ball away as much as possible and let 'inferior' sides dominate while you tuck in.
    I also can't believe anyone is stupid enough to believe top player/s walk out on a pitch with 90minutes + to win a football match against supposedly inferior opposition but choose to be outplayed instead under instruction.

    It's a complete cop out designed to protect lazy, clumsy, half hearted, overhyped players and blame the Manager.
    They also did this to Poch to a degree towards the end.

    The truth is as has always been if you don't buy top quality you won't be top quality.
    So can everyone stop pretending we were miles better before and never had bad results or performances.

    A few fine margins Vs Palace & Pool + a late equaliser Vs Wolves it's not all as doom gloom as some want to paint.
    There's an irrational hatred of JM and as said earlier people expect more from a lesser squad (again correct me if I am wrong)

    Granted it's not been easy on the eye but we have had some really good results this season which people only latch on to the odd draw etc as if they're unacceptable or were never heard of.

    Certain players need to step up and make things happen , individually & collectively there's no excuse for them as players to be out played/out thought/out hussled etc other than their own ability/effort, JM can't mark players at set pieces for instance where most of our goals have been conceded.
    Players have to take responsibility yet fans just want to jump on JM.

    Just look at things objectively , we draw 1-1 with Wolves in 2020 it's end of the world we Lose 1-3 to Wolves in 2018 and no one bats an eyelid.

    It's insane !
  2. THFC Guest

    A lot of what you say below is true however for every person that is blind to whatever Poch managed to do for us, it seems that you are the opposite end of the spectrum for defending JM and the truth probably sits somewhere in the middle.

    It seems we have a problem of some kind...either the players are not following JM’s instructions in each match which is what he has been saying or his instructions are not clear and they are not carrying them out correctly.

    The first would be a massive problem because it would indicate the squad are ignoring their instructions which is a complete lack of respect or discipline. The second is a lack of understanding by 10 outfield players of their positioning and shape which seems a little unlikely but equally as bad.

    Think what you may of Poch but we had a style and everyone understood what they needed to do. The first few years it worked a treat but towards the end started to fail but at least we were ok to watch. I think we need to move on from Poch because it’s been over a year now....

    Back to JM, if the negative, defensive style yields results at the expense of performance that’s one thing but playing that way and not winning should not really be acceptable.

    I initially was not keen on JM but based on a lot of comments from you and others as well as the documentary felt it only fair to get behind him. I am still behind him but if the results continue to falter and performances do not improve, surely we can’t make excuses about the quality of our squad. The squad is more than capable of having more than approx 30% possession/70% accuracy/ 2 shots on target in each game.

    What do you think is a fair amount of time/resource to establish a fair view of what progress JM has made?

  3. Felon82 Well-Known Member

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    This is his 1st full season and so far we've had the toughest schedule of everyone.
    Qualified in the Europa, Semis of LgCup, Decent FA Cup draw and we currently sit 7th 3points off of 2nd (for perspective)
    The irrational hatred and doom mongering is off the scale.
    Literally the only thing that could be better was if we topped the league (statistically) and had a few things gone our way we would've.

    JM is not beyond criticism for certain things, I personally think both Bale & Vinny need more PL time, the defence needs less rotation, better drilling on set pieces and the midfield needs some serious work on positioning/movement/possession etc but you can only work with what you have and let's be fair on him as much as in denial as a lot of the fan base are we are stock piled with a mish mash of players that range from shocking to weak to disinterested to can't do 2 games in a row to can't complete 90minutes to can't pass to a team mate to can't pass forward to doesn't assist/score to doesn't have a position etc etc

    If you're having to tell certain players who are experienced, cost a lot of money and on big wages how to do the basics of football then that says more about the level and quality of the footballer than it does the coach.

    At the moment fans just won't accept that too many of our players would struggle to get into most prem sides on any and all of these main things - Talent, Attitude, Application, Consistency because some are lacking 1 if not all of these traits in abundance.

    See where we are at end of season and just let us get through this patch.
    I don't expect any signings unless there's some sort of screw over or freebie for the Bald Cretins to salivate over and those that think JM has been backed so far or had a great summer window are living in cloud cuckoo land as per usual.
  4. Jose's Ghost Guest

    You seem to be under this illusion that Jose would gladly play like Pep if only the players would do so... nothing is further from the truth and that has always been the case

    Regardless of the squad's relative strength to yesteryear (apparently we have two world class forwards didn't you hear?) it is not the players who lack ambition to play football... rather it is the manager deflecting the inevitable criticism that comes when his jank tactics don't pay off

    Let me explain something to you because I can't believe anyone could be that stupid to come to the conclusion that people are saying what you are suggesting

    Jose doesn't care for possession... the team makes no consistent effort to maintain it nor win it back when lost. We don't play from the back nor do we build through the lines. We generally play quick/direct/long unless the opposition sits back and gives us no option other than to try and break them down. The most common outcome of this long ball/counter approach is that you will logically turn over possession and control of the ball to your opponent more often than not. Does that make sense?

    Now Jose's contrary idea of control is to always be defensively organised before anything else (ie. Jose is more concerned with not conceding goals than he is with scoring them) and herein lies the problem. Proper footballers like to play football (ie. have the ball at their feet) and fans don't come to watch the opposition knock it around all day. Obviously the idea is to win... it is a game after all... but football is essentially entertainment. Make it the most boring game on earth and the majority of fans will walk away.

    This is not about Pochettino but since you asked... he is held in high regard around these parts because they gave him a Fiat and he drove it like a Ferrari. You can't say the same for Jose.

    Now I don't hate the fellow in the slightest though some might for his Chelsea connections... he is an infinitely more entertaining manager off the pitch than Pochettino. But the football he is an exponent of is absolutely dire upon the eye and there is no getting around that.

    So yes you better believe that the only possible respite for Jose's win at all costs and be damned with the style approach is that he win. For as a senior official at one of his previous clubs once said... with Jose once the winning stops what else is there?
  5. Felon82 Well-Known Member

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    Where have I said this?

    My point is a team is only as good as the sum of its parts (and by the way Pep who holds a huge financial advantage over the league along with Fat Frank are currently sitting on the same points as us.) Who's doing worse?

    The problems I'm seeing is players inability in the midfield to impose themselves on the game because they're either not brave enough or good enough and in some cases both.
    Any Manager wants a tight well drilled unit when out of possession and this is where the problems arise it's like a bad cycle of cheap conceding of possession then close ranks , win the ball brain dead passes no movement give the ball away then close ranks.
    It's on players to dominate the ball and possession , move for each other , pass to each other , find space etc
  6. THFC Guest

    Part of the issue is that the performances of other top sides are artificially positioning us at the moment. Our performances have regularly not deserved points (especially in the last 4 games but even before then). This then relates directly back to if we play like we are, we must see out games like the one at Wolves to make it worthwhile. If we carry on dropping points (last 10 minutes, VAR or whatever) playing like we are, then the acceptance of substance over style will not sustain and ultimately the coach needs to take responsibility.

    In respect of coaching, just as a thing to consider, the same mish mash of players that smashed Man Utd and shut out Man City should also be performing far more consistently each week. JM is paid £15 million per season...£15 million...a coach paid that level of money should have the experience/skills/ability/man management capability to get more out of the performances of the squad that we do have consistently than we seem to be getting now.

    I am not arguing that we need additions to but I do believe we should be playing much better football than we are currently (the odd game her or there aside). The way we played against Antwerp was a warning sign about giving up possession and we are starting to get found out in the league which is a bit worrying.

    Hopefully JM can sign a couple of players in January and we will start to see some improvements in the quality of football but I am not sure that much will change. It seems to me a matter of time before JM walks/is punted which is a shame because to watch on the documentary, he seems decent but if performances don’t improve and results continue to be inconsistent there will be no choice.

  7. Preed

    Preed Well-Known Member

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    Great discussion lads and who knows who will turn out to be correct but I would ask you if you did not support spurs would you turn on your television to watch this team play at the moment.I hate to admit it but watching Liverpool Man united Chelsea Aston Villa Everton and god forbid Arsenal is far more entertaining than watching us
  8. Felon82 Well-Known Member

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    We have the worst midfield we've had in 15years yet people want expansive attacking football.
    Our best most creative midfielder can't run for more than 65minutes.
    Winks & LoCelso are nothing players that spurs fans think are shackled into being sh;t.
    Sissoko is an awful footballer.
    Hojbjerg does a job defensively.

    People need a reality check on how bad our midfield actually is before they start bemoaning any tactics and wondering why we can't keep the ball and are outplayed by every midfield we face.
  9. Preed

    Preed Well-Known Member

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    I did not ask about our shortcomings I asked if you enjoyed watching us at the moment.why was a creative midfielder not on Jose’s shopping list in the last window??I do wonder why two players who get the most abuse ie Winks and Dier are always in Gareth’s England squads
  10. Felon82 Well-Known Member

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    The point is as the saying goes 'you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear'

    I enjoyed watching us thump Utd , beat City & Arsenal if not for missing a few sitters we'd of had Liverpool's scalp aswell and things would look a lot different.

    How can you expect more entertainment with brain dead footballers ?
  11. Jose's Ghost Guest

    The manager doesn't wish to dominate the ball... never has and never will. This is the illusion you're under.

    Even when he was in charge of the most expensively assembled side on earth he would gladly cede possession if the opponent so desired. He prefers the counter. The two are mutually exclusive.
  12. Jose's Ghost Guest

    Ndombele is being pulled prematurely (a major mistake against Wolves might I add) for the same reason Bergwijn is being started over Bale. The manager prefers work rate and mobility over skill.

    When your forwards are being selected for their defensive prowess then surely that is all you need to know?
  13. Felon82 Well-Known Member

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    You mean the record breaking points and goals scoring Real Madrid he managed?
  14. Jose's Ghost Guest

    Yes exactly. They were a counter machine.
  15. Felon82 Well-Known Member

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    They weren't camped in their own half ever being dominated.

    Don't remember any of his Chelsea sides happy to concede possession either , they were always difficult to beat but they weren't camped in their own half scared to pass forward or to another player.

    And the reason being for that is they were much better players at disposal.

    So how about stop being so disingenuous to the quality of players we have and the reason they can't keep possession or out play teams apparently inferior to them
  16. Felon82 Well-Known Member

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    I notice how no 1 can mention a single upgrade in the team from 16/17 but still expect better football and results still waiting on that?
  17. Preed

    Preed Well-Known Member

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    Reguillon over Davies or Rose Hojbjerg over Dier surely improvements
  18. Unhappyclapper New Member

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    Best transfer window ever if you believe what you read brought in 7 players but only 2 are decent (PEH and Reggie) add them 2 to 3/4 existing players and there lies the problem I've read loads about the depth and quality of our squad and its just a lie we have an abundance of mediocre players who on their day are great unfortunately them days are far and few between
    Felon82 likes this.
  19. Jose's Ghost Guest

    Which of his Chelsea sides would you like to the talk about? The blueprint never changes.

    Ironic assessment... we're actually camped in our own half most of the time because we're ALWAYS passing forward as soon as we get the ball. There is no desire to control possession... which is why we sit 12th in the league in that regard.
  20. Felon82 Well-Known Member

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    I'd argue Reg isn't better than Peak Rose and Hojbjerg is about the same level as Wanyama was at Peak , there's been no improvement on Dembele Jan Walker or CE , and Toby Alli Dier have all been steadily getting worse

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