Failure to learn or improve

Discussion in 'Tottenham forum' started by Felon82, October 28, 2019.

Share This Page

  1. Flawless Guest

    Different people support our great club. Even those who struggle to understand cause and effect relation. Liverpool's progress is not about simply "believing" it is about certain transformation and changes in ownership, management and playing personnel etc etc. The same applies to Chelsea. Belief is important, but there are many many other ingredients.

    I hear you, Spurporter. Mass gathering of long suffering Spurs fans is a painful watch. Soon is the 20 year ENIC anniversary, regime that consistently failed their expectations and apart from being proud objectors of mediocrity they have nothing to celebrate...:(

    Very sensible comments, Pickleman1967
  2. palmover Active Member

    Likes Received:
    There is enough talent in the squad to go on a long unbeaten run, however, MP refuse's to play to the players strength's and picks players who don't deserve to play and are not committed to the cause.

    As a fan i ask myself how can Ce get into the team ahead of Moura? I know some of the players are saying the same thing, these type of decisions create bad vibes.

    Mp may stumble on a set up able to get spurs winning again, however, unless there is a massive change to his whole football approach, i would like to see a change of manager in the summer.
    Bazza47 and Gordon Mc like this.
  3. Felon82 Well-Known Member

    Likes Received:
    Things to celebrate on ENICs 20th anniversary-

    We didn't do a Leeds.
    We were careful what we wished for.
    A loosely themed 'Football' stadium that can erase all Spurs links in about 2 hours.
    £600mil in Debt with highest ticket prices in Europe.
    The largest club shop in Europe.
    World class training facilities (don't watch the academy or the injuries)
    1 league Cup.
    Self pouring plastic pints.

    Did I forget anything?
    Gordon Mc likes this.
  4. Cheshuntboy Guest

    Your first few posts were concise and comprehensible, but it seems you've been listening to too many Pochettino press conferences; what is this post meant to say? There's no point criticising Pochettino/ENIC because they are what they are, and that's all there is to it? People who aren't 'proud objectors of mediocrity' DO have something to celebrate? What precisely? As with 'Spurporter', some leeway for posting in a foreign language is necessary, but there are limits.
  5. Big fran Guest

    Harry winks
    Cheeses room
    Sky lounge
    Possible NFL franchise with retractable pitch
    Longest bar in Europe
    Gordon Mc and Felon82 like this.
  6. Flawless Guest

    Cheshuntboy, you seem to be quite intelligent person. Your English is so good and you use commas where necessary. However, this is not the first time your conclusion to my post puzzles me as I use very simple language to explain myself. How on earth you came to the idea that I suggest you cannot criticise Poch or ENIC?
    Critical thinking is good! Constructive criticism is great! If you can offer constructive thoughts we all are more than willing to hear it. This is fans community after all.

    Thanks to Felon82 and BigFran for answering the question instead of me. I imagine your faces became happier for a minute or so - awesome! Now, everybody lets dance and celebrate.

  7. Jesper Guest

    My opinion is that ENIC has done well in building a platform for success: The new stadium and constant qualifications for Europe.
    Now something is to be built on this platform and it takes one set of skills to build the foundation/platform and it takes another set of skill to build on the platform. Some managers might have both skill sets.
    The skill set of the manager who can build on from where we are now might include:
    -the ability to buy and integrate players
    -the ability to be ruthless with loyal players who are not good enough
    Possibly what I describe is, what many say with derision, a cheque-book manager.

    I do not see Poch as a manager who is able to quickly integrate players.
    I do not see Poch as a manager who is able to replace and bench players who for years were good but are now not good enough. How Hart was treated at City might be one example.

    Long term success can be about finding one (preferrably two) preferred formations were the role of each player in the formation is known. If done correctly then it might be easier to find new players who will perform well and quickly start performing well. As is then I can't quite figure out the actual formation played, maybe the players have clear instructions and I am just not able to see what players are supposed to be doing. Maybe the strategy is to confuse the opposition as if it is not possible to see what is tried then how to oppose it? Or maybe there is confusion which instead of confusing the opposition is confusing the Spurs players.

    The short of it might be: I believe ENIC has done well, possibly even great, and I believe that while Poch was good for the previous stage now he might need to improve or be replaced.
  8. Cheshuntboy Guest

    Well done Flawless - patronising, supercilious and sarcastic, all in one post, and all in a foreign language. If I had a hat, I'd certainly take it off to you, but please accept some figurative cap-doffing instead. As for your views on Spurs, I remain baffled; the subtext of your posts is clearly pro-Pochettino and ENIC, but you don't make a direct case for either - all very oblique and mysterious! You're not really Ossie Ardiles, are you? Or even Poch himself?
  9. P Reed Guest

    Still waiting for a post that addresses my comment about losing to Colchester and then being humiliated (7-2 by Bayern.Spurporter and Flawless give us plenty of spiel about how we must stick with the chosen one (sorry pochetino) but shy away from the total humiliation of that night as though it had nothing to do with him or his lack off action when it was obvious we were heading for an embarrassing defeat.
  10. Felon82 Well-Known Member

    Likes Received:
    So ENIC have invested peanuts taking over a relative sleeping giant , big fan base , historically a cup side , in the capital.
    During the evolution of the Premier League which has successfully became the Richest and most watched league in the World.
    Due to the sponsorship deals and TV rights etc the Club (all steady clubs) have enjoyed the most fruitful spells with regards to money being pumped in for them to do with how they see fit.
    ENIC decided to spend most of these found riches into buildings , while they sold off top talent and played a sell to buy potential strategy constantly hamstringing the team/manager from ever really having a fair crack at anything (see list of casualties, former flops & false dawn's)
    After years of budgeting and short changing the team and fans with the 10 year 'were building a stadium' line they delivered a Training Ground - paid for by the club , and an NFL/Soccer Stadium paid for and to be financed by the club 60% over original budget 4 years over original delivery date and 1 year over final delivery date to the tune of being £637 million in debt.

    Meanwhile successive Managers have had to fight fires and sticky tape the life raft of a 1st team 'squad' together while us fans have had to pay through the nose for the pleasure of seeing our side be Prudent and bring in a paltry 1 league cup in 20 years. The worst trophy return of any ownership since the 1930s.

    So basically what ENIC have done is used most of the basic backing a standard Prem side in a prime location would receive and used it to build property at a huge cost to us.
    This is to be celebrated ?
    You'd have to be extremely thick to not be able to deliver anything similar with an endless supply of sponsorship & TV money financing your operation that u drip feed crumbs back into and an overall budget of £1bn to complete.

    For people to talk about platforms to build from if the end game was/is sell they've priced themselves out of most Billionaires price range , who wants to pick up a side that will cost north of 2bn of which a considerable chunk is debt , on top of that another 1bn needs to be pumped in for a credible squad to be put together to be a serious outfit?

    The stadium was always used as a pre mill stone as to why we couldn't spend on the team , but once complete would put us on a more level playing field with the big boys ie start properly challenging yet here we are with a squad in major need of surgery , dissilussioned players , a manager that looks miserable , no playing style and now a long run of relegation form.
    Yet the pre mill stone is continuing to be a post mill stone with regards to mixing it with the proper heavyweights.

    Yet we are supposed to be happy that we just exist , that we are competitive , we have from top down the ethos that Trophies don't really matter , we can't sign top players , we don't pay going rate wages for top quality , we won't invest in a proper balanced squad with proper quality outside just the 1st 11 (the whole 1st 11 would be a start)

    There is nothing changing at this club we were sold a lie (not all of us but mainly all)

    Any buisness has to get the core end product right to be a success ENIC have done everything but hence why if this continuation of poor performances , zero silverware , squad capitulation and what's looking ever likely no CL qualification then this whole charade of a Stadium project will turn very Toxic very quickly.

    We have become the poor man's version of our neighbours (expect without any trophies this century to reminisce about).
    Big shiney Stadium , expensive tickets , merchandise , clinging to a manager thats beyond their use by date , top players looking for moves away , contract issues , top 4 the be all n end all , fan base split and inwards fighting , being left behind by all the serious clubs that put the end product first.
    Bazza47 and Gordon Mc like this.
  11. Jesper Guest

    I believe what ENIC has done is difficult to do. Reading your post (quoting where I got the belief that you think it is easy and then the part of how others have not yet found the success they wished for) then I get the impression that you think it is easy to do what ENIC has done. On that our opinions might differ.

    We are probably in agreement that Poch is unlikey to be the man to bring success for Spurs.
    Signing him when he was signed was probably a good idea for the situation that was at that time, extending his contract might have been a bad idea. In that ENIC might have done better.
  12. Spurporter Well-Known Member

    Likes Received:
    Well, your bigotry is unlimited, whilst I don't give a flying **** about it. Stick to the football, Mr. Principal. That is where you are as soft as a rotten cheese. The reason for your preference of Redknapp over "latinos" has nothing to do with their performance, obviously. You're bothered with their grammatical inaccuracies. Isn't that silly??
    Last edited: October 31, 2019
  13. Spurporter Well-Known Member

    Likes Received:
    Colchester was a typical EPL cup mishap. tColshester eliminated Palace after that due to same. That is why the competition exist. That is why the Spurs, a midtable team, have won a few in the past.
    Lets's see how Spurs perform in Munich. You might change your mind , if we win there. I am not predicting the win there, I have no idea what team will be like then. But in football the result may not be the fair reflection of competition. And even if it does reflect the situation, that is another argument that , perhaps, nothing could be changed to prevent the beating. To me loss to Bayern was huge disappointment, but it was a fair result, that could be different and looked not as bad, but not at all averted. The loss to Pool on Sat was lesser disappointment, cause Spurs played well and the result wasn't fair, IMO. I believe there is an upward trend in the team. If I am wrong and the club is reeling downwards, then I would agree with those here who have capitulated and want to change the coach. Time is needed for that.
    Last edited: October 31, 2019
  14. Cheshuntboy Guest

    I certainly am bothered about having a manager who talks rubbish and then blames the media for supposedly distorting or misquoting him when his 'mis-speaks' (or downright lies) are thrown back at him, and I'm equally unhappy about the snobbery all too obvious in the treatment of Redknapp (and Sherwood, come to that) because he was/is unashamedly cockney and proud of it, in an era when only clubs like Burnley and Bournemouth are old-fashioned enough not to have fashionably exotic managers - even AVB managed to con two PL clubs into employing him FFS! And if you seriously believe that AVB was better than Redknapp, then you're even more deluded than I thought.
    PS Your grammar is improving - keep it up.
  15. Flawless Guest

    Cheshuntboy, although I learned one new word from your post I decided to retract my comment about your intelligence. First impression is often wrong. I'll use short sentences to make it easier for you to digest everything.
    The world is not black OR white.
    I'm actually pro-Tottenham. Tottenham is a property of ENIC. Pochettino is ENIC's employee to manage their property.
    I want success for Tottenham. I want Tottenham to win every possible cup or match. As I said, what I want is irrelevant.

    ENIC has its own vision and development plan for their property. Do I want them to buy Messi and appoint Guardiola? YES! Do they want it? NO!

    For a club without sugar daddy owner I believe ENIC has done very well. I can see a progress every year and CL final and new stadium put us on a modern football map. The future is bright.

    Jesper has done a superb assessment of the situation earlier. I like the way he thinks.
    Pickleman1967 made a very good comment that we know nothing about lots of things going behind the scenes.

    I tried to explain my position, but I don't want to know what is your conclusion. Please don't reply to me as start to agree that I waste my time with you. :):)
  16. Cheshuntboy Guest

    Your time is obviously far too precious to waste on me, but I'll decide whose posts I'll reply to, thank you very much.
  17. Felon82 Well-Known Member

    Likes Received:
    What I'm saying is with what has turned out a £1bn budget that's saddled us with debt surely it's not some unbelievable fete that they managed to build a stadium with it?

    It's like being given a £5k budget for a 6x4 shed in your garden and getting plaudits for it being better than the old one.

    Great achievement but you've still got a mower that's on its last legs a few tools not fit for purpose stored in it and youl be paying it off for the foreseeable future.

    Nice work.
    Gordon Mc likes this.
  18. Jesper Guest

    ENIC probably thought that to compete then higher wages would need to be paid and if they thought so then they might have been concerned about how to afford to pay those wages. And what followed was a decision to try to increase revenues by building a new and bigger stadium. The development of the stadium was late and over budget, it shouldn't have been but it is not uncommon that big developments are late and over budget. Some go bankrupt if their development is late and over budget. ENIC managed to avoid that - might be a low bar but still.

    & one more thing, not directed at you but when looking at the contracts situation together with the played minutes then something is very off. Eriksen is constantly being played which to me implies he has the confidence of the manager Poch and if that is the case and Poch had been in charge of contracts then maybe Eriksen would now be on a high wage long term contract....
    So for me then I think that limiting his influence on contracts might have been a good thing. I'd like to see Vertongen and Alderveireld signing new contracts, based on playing time that might not happen.

    In hindsight Alli and Eriksen should have been sold at their peak valuation, however, doing so would probably have raised a lot of anger as their peak value was when they were actually performing as very good players and the club would have been accused of being a selling club without ambition.

    As is then my expectation is that next match against Everton will have the same starters, therefore I expect similar performance and while Everton is nowhere near as good as Liverpool they might beat a Spurs team performing like it did on Sunday.

    Poch appears ready to tough it out, if he does then his reputation will be damaged unless the performances improve a lot. He's paid enough to never have to work again so he can afford to risk it. ENIC might not be able to get a young and exciting manager again if they pull the trigger early, however, if they want the club to go to another level then the next managers might have to be someone with a proven track-record and not someone who may or may not be ready for the challenges of managing a top club.

    Worst case then maybe Mourinho comes in, not that I dislike what he can accomplish it is more that I really do not like him. The price of success would be too high with him, however, if it is between relegation and hiring him for a couple of months then even he would be acceptable.

    Rambling post, hopefully some might make some sense
  19. Dan Guest

    I also like how Jesper thinks. I love what Poch has done for this team but I think we are extrapolating too much from past performance. He may not have the skillset to move the Club from a band of ambitious young footballers to a more seasoned and ruthless squad of early- to mid-career professionals who possess mental toughness and deliver consistent team performances. I fear that he is unable to adapt his coaching methods (dynamism in attack without necessary defensive organization, fitness over technical proficiency, possession without progression, and protracted integration periods for new players) when he has players no longer fit for purpose. When Klopp had player deficiencies with Liverpool, he/management identified the weak links (Skrtel, Balotelli, Mignolet, Moreno, Sturridge, etc.) and moved all these players on & generally recouped some transfer fees. He retreated from heavy metal football but continues to feature high pressing at intervals.

    By insisting on maintaining a stable 'Project,' we are likely to lose out on transfer fees for CE, Toby, Jan and then lose CL appearance money for 2020-21. Our whole player acquisition/scouting strategy has to change to be more short-term focused & we cannot carry injured players for years (Lamela, Dier, Wanyama, Dele) without some expectation they will return to prior fitness/form.

    The Club has the physical infrastructure now to compete at the highest level. We need player acquisition & contracting experts (Dir. of Football) to take over from the coach and Chairman so we don't continue to make poor transfer signings (S. Aurier, J. Clarke if he is not a fit, even Moura). The whole business model is now threatened by the lack of CL football so we have to spend our limited funds in a wiser manner. With our current form, there is not a player I would not consider selling if it offered the chance to rebuild the team. And that includes H. Kane who I think is exhibiting signs of decline. The stadium move, sentimentality & a desire for team cohesiveness have really caused us to drop the ball on taking the Club to a higher level. We have achieved a lot but we have to be smarter & better.
  20. Dan Guest

    This describes our tactical problems pretty well.
    Bazza47 likes this.

Guest comments allowed! Use 'Add your comment' button

Share This Page