Failure to learn or improve

Discussion in 'Tottenham forum' started by Felon82, October 28, 2019.

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  1. Cheshuntboy Guest

    The 'real supporters support while the critics should eff off and support Arsenal/Chelsea/whoever' debate has been run and re-run on this site and elsewhere, and it's getting just a bit stale. You're apparently happy with Levy, Pochettino and things as they are, so why are we in such a mess? Changing the manager after half-a-dozen bad results can clearly be a mistake, but we've got a whole season of decline behind us - even when we kept winning early in 2018/19, we had a string of last-minute goals and penalties to thank, but our form in this calendar year has been abysmal, the CL run being a total fluke, for which Pochettino deserves no credit whatsoever. A new manager can transform a club, as Redknapp did with us in 2008, and even a dead cat bounce like Sherwood's in 2013/14 is better than the unravelling we're currently experiencing, with Pochettino seeming every bit as disillusioned as any of the players, regardless of whose fault the situation is. That's my opinion, and I'm stuck with it!
    Bazza47, Gordon Mc and Felon82 like this.
  2. Big fran Guest

    So if we don't change the manager, or the man running the club and we keep the same set of players how on earth do you expect things to improve.?
    Gordon Mc likes this.
  3. Felon82 Well-Known Member

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    1 of the best lines I've heard is that he deserves time to put things right.

    What's he been doing for the last 9 months?
    What's he done to improve on 16/17?
    After 5 seasons no trophies needs a rebuild , starting in January? without buying players?
    5 seasons to bring through 1 very average academy player and then play him at a cost to the actual quality of the first team?

    This was the young manager with the young side that was just going to get better so good they didn't need to buy players or couldn't even find better players to improve according to the Levbotomised happy clappers , they all came on here giving it the Biggie for not believing in the project but incredibly they've all disappeared.

    Where have they all gone?
  4. Spurporter Well-Known Member

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    The only option left is to change the players. No one has indicated that same set of players will be kept. It is a gradual process, but Poch has done it once. I am sure he will be able to do it again. Just wait and see. Poch cannot sell players, he can only bench them. Benched players do not sell well. That is the problem and we will see how it will be handled. To suggest to rid of one of the best coaches in Europe is just preposterous at this time. It could come to it, anything is possible, but to call for ousting Pochettino now is premature, especially after performance in Liverpool, which, despite the loss, indicated the long awaited improvement.

    Poch is a stubborn one. He was hit hard by the loss in Madrid. That was the chance to win UCL without being strongest in Europe, as Pool was there for taking, unlike last Saturday. On Saturday Klopp had the best performance of the season out his squad. Spurs were at their best in the entire 2019. Poch was going for revenge and started last season XI to make the revenge real. That didn't work, because CE, Dele, Rose were outright bad. However, Kane, Son, Winks and Sissoko were good, able to carry the ballast of those 3 and the squad at times reminisced the Spurs as we know them. If Son was little bit more composed and didn't hit the crossbar, we would be talking about victory over PL leader and possibly a turning point. We know how it ended. Yet I am PROUD of what Spurs brought about there in Anfield.

    The next trip to Liverpool is critical . If they are able to sustain the game they played Saturday and, perhaps, be better, the recovery may be real. If not, we are getting a typical reeling of the club in true need of rebuild. For that you keep Poch. He is a rebuild specialist. You rid of someone like MP when club is close to winning big, but need a coach, like Mourinho, to get them over the hump.
    Last edited: October 29, 2019
  5. Gordon Mc

    Gordon Mc Well-Known Member

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    Looking at a couple of posts and I'm struggling to comprehend the logic - "benched players don't sell well" : well possibly not, but you're hardly likely to get top dollar for someone who rarely gets his corner past the first defender or delivers a threatening free-kick, let alone a killer pass, and that's when he appears any way a*sed at all. Eriksen - for it is he, obviously, used more energy on Sunday arguing with the referee than he did impersonating a top-flight footballer. To my mind he's not in a bad spell of form, it's gone on far too long, for the best part of a year - he's elsewhere mentally and shouldn't be anywhere near the starting XI until /unless he sorts himself out. Dele likewise - all wasteful fancy flicks and bad attitude but right now, for some reason, he's NOWHERE near the exciting young talent of his first 18 months. He's 23, hardly a young prodigy any more but an International footballer and just seemingly wasting himself. As for being proud of Spurs on Sunday - give me a break !! Proud of what exactly ?? A goal up in 47 seconds then Saturday Morning League hoofball for the rest of the game. And a manager who hardly inspires confidence anymore, his whole touchline deameanour says nothing positive and plenty to be concerned about. Where is the instruction to anyone, a change of tactics, a look of interest even ? I now see nothing that tells me he can move us forward and out of this dreadful spiral of increasing less-than mediocrity.
    We - some of us - are accused of peddling the same - allegedly - tired arguments and pointing at the same (underperforming) players and you know why ? 'Cos the same old things are still happening - poor defensive play and one dimensional, directionless football among other things and the same players are still underperforming, yet are guaranteed a start when fit. We're told we're not supporting our side 'cos we aren't happy and singing all day, come what may. No - I'm not happy at all and I don't have any magic solutions but the manager is the guy who's well-paid job it is to find some solutions and I see no sign of that; He must know this can't go on. There are some quality players in the club, but there are those among them who aren't doing themselves any favours whereas others are just plain poor - yes Mr Aurier, I'm looking straight at you here - and a spot of whip-cracking rather than indulging egos may be required. I said on here after the Emirates draw that 'Arry looked well p*ssed off walking off at half-time and I'll be surprised if he' s not thinking right now of going elsewhere. Now THAT would certainly be a wake-up call 'cos the way things are it's Road To Nowhere at the Lane. Now tell me I'm wrong.
    Last edited: October 29, 2019
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  6. P reed Guest

    Been waiting for spurporter to come out of hiding and grasp at any thing to convince himself that pochetino is god.I agree that if Son had scored on Sunday we may have sneaked a result but don’t let that cover up all the other dire performances.Where is the proof that pochetino is one of the top coaches in Europe .11 years in management and no trophies and the remark that he is one of the best team builders Is total fantasy. How can you build when he says we don’t need to buy and also the current team has about 9 players who were at the club when he arrived. He can’t get selection right now so what magic formula. Is going to suddenly appear.
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  7. Flawless Guest

    Mourinho... I like the sound of it. Thoroughly enjoyed the way his Man United played. His style won't leave Spurs fans unhappy.
    Last time I checked Benitez and Rodgers seemed to be busy.
    How about we approach Big Sam until the end season to save us from relegation? Unlike Poch he is proven to get results. Then we can sell Eriksen, Aurier, Lamela, Rose, Davies, Dier, Wanyama, Lloris, Alderweireld, Winks, Alli and lure Mou to Spurs with a decent transfer kitty. I reckon we could get 50m for this lot.
  8. Cheshuntboy Guest

    I've more than once been accused of being a sneery smartarse, quick to criticise and light on answers (and there's plenty of truth in the accusation), but I reckon I've more than met my match in you. I gather you're very happy with Pochettino, so why not just say it - it would save a lot of time and trouble for all concerned.
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  9. Spurporter Well-Known Member

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    You aren't. The team is in crisis. I do not question the diagnosis, I am against the medicine suggested. Changing the manager sometimes helps the struggling team. It never helps the team in crisis. It didn't help MU, Arsenal as of late. Why? Because if the squad getting to the end of cycle, no managerial change will substitute for rebuild. Spurs are at the end of cycle. They need to sell most and promote the young. During that period Spurs will have to lose many games, not finish top 4, be lucky to make Europa League. How many well established managers will sign for that mess? Not a single one. So be happy with Poch, hope he will get Spurs through and just stop hoping for any trophies coming our way. Neither MU or Arsenal got top manager for their rebuilds. Spurs, with limited resources, even less likely. That is the nature of football, just accept it. Or, you can, like me, hope for the miracle, return to normalcy, end of the crisis on its own.
    Last edited: October 30, 2019
  10. Flawless Guest

    Not sure what drugs you use Cheshuntboy to gather that I'm very happy with Poch,
    No sane fan should be happy with Poch and current state of things.

    To be accused of being a smartarse you need to suggest something more or less clever. Your only solution so far is to destroy without any idea how to build. So please don't pretend to be a victim, we are all unhappy but emotions do not help with decisions.
  11. Big fran Guest

    Benched players don't sell well is not the managers problem. CE stated he was open to leave in the summer and I'm sure bids will have been made. Not the figure that the club wanted but something is better than nothing right? Now eriksen gets the best of both worlds plays Wk in, out. Gets paid 80k. Gets a mega deal at his next club. All while keeping him self ticking over nicely without risk of injury for the euros. Playing him is doing everyone a favour except the team. On alli I've never rated him as a player in the fact he has no exceptional qualities except for the fact that when played in the right area and given the licence to make third man runs into the box he's the best thier I'd in this league and can get you a crazy amount of goals and a decent amount of assists. That's invaluable. Again Sunday he seemed to be out of position in a team set up to shoe horn in eriksen.
    The red star game and the result not performance at anfield in the fact we didn't get the battering we thought will give him a stay of execution and maybe rightly so. But lose at goodison Sunday then he's right back to square one.
    Can't see the haters of mourinho given the right tools he has built teams to excite. Porto. His first Chelsea side amassed mega points and goal tallys. Real Madrid. Inter Milan was dull I'd admit but it was a limited squad in the shadow of a brilliant juve squad who hand pick the best talent from an Italian set up to be feeder clubs to the old lady. He also beat Europe's finest to seal a treble not crumbled in a final. His second coming at struggling Chelsea wins the league in his first season playing some free flowing football until Xmas when we battered them and he was intelligent enough to shut up shop for the remainder of the season as he recognised flaws in an ageing squad overnight similar to ours if you will and got them over the line.
    Goes to united and despite being deemed a flop wins 2 major trophies in 3 yrs. He's battling v a far more superior man City and Liverpool offensive squads to which he knows he can't compete with playing end to end football but still nails a 2nd spot. His final year he begs and begs for 2 Centre halfs one of which being Harry maguire deemed overpriced at 60m but told no. He wants rid of pogba but not backed. A year later results are worse pogba remains an issue and maguire finally signed for a further 20m or so.
    Who are we to turn our noses up at a serial winner. The issue is he needs resources and won't get it. However he won't bow down to egos, will pick on form and make us more defensively cohesive out of possession. If there is a rebuild to be done in January I'd certainly bk mourinho to do it in one window and/or a quicker timescale.
    Felon82 likes this.
  12. Flawless Guest

    Eriksen is incredible talent, top professional and clubs long-time leader. It is crazy not to play him, but in the same time it is very painful to watch his recent performances. He's been **** like many many other individuals, can't say he is the weakest link though. No idea about his training commitment and mental state, but from my sofa it seems that Poch should trust him less from now on, hopefully Lo Celso will step up to replace him when 100% fit.

    I don't see any Mourinho hater here. Without any doubt Mourinho is a living legend and world-class manager.
    Problem is that Spurs and Mourinho do not match well.
    - Spurs arguably too small club for him
    - limited resources. he heavily relies on owner to back him. wont happen here.
    - his preference to buy\play established players. doesn't work well with young player development.
    - arguably too defensive setup for majority of Spurs fans
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  13. Felon82 Well-Known Member

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    It's already been destroyed due to neglect under Pochettinos watch.
    His 'management' is now of real concern , the squad looks fed up he looks fed up the fans are fed up , it's time for a change.

    To ask fans who the change should be too to make some sort of point is irrelevant as we have no say in such matters, but we are entitled to an opinion that we are more than free to voice if we think the current regime is damaging and is getting worse, which all evidence and credible stats confirm.

    Pochettino spinning riddle after riddle window after window has done nothing to help the current team out.
    Neglected to buy or improve a side which had a couple weaknesses to now looking at a side that needs a huge rebuild , no signings for 2 windows then 3 signings that will need according to Pochettino a year n a half to bed in , no signings planned for January, a hint of youth coming in yet never seen or introduced, while our most experienced but completely dissilussioned players walk on frees

    It's a complete and utter shambles, a rebuild needs enthusiasm and new ideas Pochettino cuts a figure that is anything but , repeating the same nonsense and mistakes year after year.
    It's done , how long are we supposed to wait around and hope it might improve and for what?
    Highest ticket prices in Europe?
    To hope we can stop being outplayed by Brighton, Watford, Newcastle......
    To watch youth be drafted in out of desperation rather than by design?

    It's ridiculous and highly delusional to think any of it just needs time and more support.
  14. Flawless Guest

    It is equally irrelevant to ask the fans about the need to change. Somewhat I'm sure our beloved chairman Daniel Levy understands the situation better, knows all internal matters and got clubs short-term an long-term development plans. I don't think he is dependent of what fans have to say about one of his current employees.

    But YEAH! We are entitled to an opinion, that's why I'm asking about Poch potential replacement, just for the sake of debate and not because I blindly support our head coach Poch who to the very best of my knowledge is not responsible for transfers and contract situations.
  15. Felon82 Well-Known Member

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    I'm sorry but just look through the last 9months of league results under Pochettino it's simply not good enough.
    Even your jibe earlier about Alardyce etc not that I'm a fan but even they wouldn't have form so poor with the squad Pochettino has to hand and they also wouldn't be afforded the same protection and excuses as Poch is.

    He had his purple patch where the Establishment had a huge wobble/identity crisis which made him look better than he is , his 1 tactic of running hard worked for about 2 seasons (plus Kane's super human heroics) and now even that has deserted him.
    He's now a busted flush with an arrogant ego that is damaging the club.

    It's time for a new course just like when all managers life cycle is up and as we know more than any it's always a gamble who comes in how it pans out , but 1 things for sure a new manager has expectations on their shoulders which means they have to perform unlike the comfy can't do no wrong trophies dont matter no end game expectations project manager we currently have.
    Last edited: October 30, 2019
  16. Felon82 Well-Known Member

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    Good management is all about bar setting, challenging and keeping everyone working together to achieve or better it. It's about foresight , pro activity, reacting , cutting losses and dead weight etc

    If a manager in any form of team or work says there's the bar for the year (targets/trophies etc) but if you don't make it or get them it won't change us so don't worry you will all still get to stay and carry on just as before , some may even be rewarded extra for poor performance while others who were actually really good get nothing and even made examples of.

    You will soon find yourself with a comfy bunch of serial poor performers and a disgruntled unenthusiastic old guard

    Which is exactly what we are reaping
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  17. Big fran Guest

    Crazy not to play a player who recent performances have been hard to watch. On what basis do you then think its acceptable to leave a player out then? When he's bang in form. I'd completely leave him out the squad til January and when he realises his international aspirations may suffer he may get the hell out the club and we may just may get a few quid for him rather than nothing.
    You talk about mourinho not working well with youth. Did he not bring rashford and mctominay on at United probably thier 2 best performers at present.
    Poch has done nothing for our youth. Kwp the best English full bk at every level upto the unders 20s destroyed. Carroll bentaleb livermore Mason townsend Edwards reo Griffiths keanen benetts all moved on. On the road to destroying parrot already. Provides us with what. Flecking arry winks.
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  18. P reed Guest

    Just a comment about the misplaced faith in Pochs ability to make players better.2 years ago England boasted 6 Tottenham players . Now its 3 and that includes Winks who was not in the original 6.The only 2 left are Kane and rose although Trippier has just regained his place after being dropped while at spurs. As I said Trippier had to move to Spain to regain form but Ali and Dier have been totally ruined by the current way poch uses them and it is only time before the shocking form of Rose costs him his place.Walker left for pastures new but he is now out of England contention due to the emergence of the young talent which spurs missed.I suspect that Winks will not be far behind if he can’t find more to his game although England do give him a significant role where he has quality ball winners around him.Not bad 6 to 2 in two years from one of the best coaches in the premieship
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  19. Flawless Guest

    I think expectations and bar setting should by synced with reality. As some posters suggested we have a **** coach, **** squad and medium sized club running on limited resources - with such input data it is quite delusional to have high expectations - it will only damage morale. In my opinion, adequate expectations are CL qualification and domestic cup lottery. There is absolutely NO foundation to seriously challenge for trophies.

    As to Eriksen, good question! Team play arguably built around him, he is in the middle of everything and it actually worked well. There is no like for like replacement, so you need to change a lot to accommodate another player. I think Poch put some trust in Eriksen to recover his form. Unfortunately without success.

    As to Mourinho - I don't know about his role in bringing Rashford and mctominay. IF it was his decision and purely for footballing reasons - fair play to him. Although, these two still have a lot of things to prove.
  20. Spurporter Well-Known Member

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    Well put. Thank you. That makes the entire Felon&Co rumblings here quite irrelevant.
    Another well made point! It will take time to supplant CE. And that time will not be pretty. I think against weaker opponent, like Zvezda, it was appropriate to use dele in that position. He likes #10 and it is suited him before. I think Dele will start there at Goodison. LoCelso is not a natural central MF, IMO. What I have seen was him playing wide on either side.

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