Blaming the fans is out of order Ade

Discussion in 'Tottenham forum' started by Mattj78, November 10, 2014.

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  1. burnt Guest

    We have still spent over 223mill on players in last 5 years no matter what way you look at it ..
     
  2. Bazza47

    Bazza47 Well-Known Member

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    Now that is fascinating and really confirms where our great club is at......ENIC will NEVER invest in Spurs, this is a Zero Sum club....it's all about the Bottom Line......
    So there would be those that say it's being prudent and running as a real business, and you might be right, but the truth is they are in it for themselves.....turning the £21m price paid to Sugar into a 20 fold eventual return.....only trouble is they entrusted key roles to Baldini, AVB, Timmy, Poch.....and that business case looks decidedly wobbly now, or worse........
     
  3. big fran Guest

    Wow just caught up with this post and its getting pretty heated and many of us singing from the same hymn sheet. Still no Ramos. Mmmm! Conspicuous by his absence buy I'm sure he's lurking,reading and no doubt beginning to agree!!
    Now we can talk all day about this player or that player namely naughton rose kaboul not being good enuf and the failings of pretty much all the recent signings still to deliver. But the situation is pretty much the same as when Arry himself took over ironically enough from Juande Ramos. The squad is a) unbalanced b) as a whole not good enough c) the quality we do have is lacking direction and belief with many not being played d) has no notable spine and or a preferred starting 11 e) players not playing for the fans/shirt/badge

    Now although we all agree that booing the team isn't always helpful all the above coupled with poor results and/or performances allows fans who pay GOOD money to vote with their voices if not feet. They boo at half time and full time not at the first whistle and give the team every chance to put things right each game! This isn't a knee jerk reaction to a poor start to the season but a culmination of the last 3 yrs and as the club continue to communicate and liase with the fans how else do they voice their concerns. Now surely people don't suggest that the fans turn up in force each week accept defeat,watch garbage keep mouths shut and simply go home??
    The spending chart whilst not surprising is interesting reading and would be more palitable if the stadium was on the brink of the horizon and the football was half decent. We could all have taken the hit and accepted the player sales were all for a greater cause and maintaining financial stability in doing so.
    Still no stadium. No clarity. No nothing.
     
  4. Nick Guest

    If you think there are problems at the Lane. Lets think.

    4 4 2 NOT JUST OUR PLAYER BUT THEY ARE INTERNATIONALS IN THEIR COUNTRIES.

    THERE INDEPENDANT COACHES AND SCOUTS FROM THEIR COUNTIRES HAVE CHOSEN THEM TO REPRESENT THEIR COUNTRIES.

    Adey (Togo) Soldado (Spain)

    Lemla (Argentia International) Capoo (French International) Erikson (Denmark International) Townsend (England International)

    Notghton Vertongon Kabal Rose


    Lloirs


    We are dealing with international footballers.

    This team will rise again.
     
  5. jimmyforengland New Member

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    A team called Tottenham might rise again. I only hope I'm still alive to see it. The same with England. But with two such men at the respective helms, I shan't hold my breath.
     
  6. stevethespur Active Member

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    Some interesting points in these posts. Financially we cant hope to compete with the sheik dollars of Man city and the Oligarch Rubels of Chelski, these two clubs have drastically altered the structure of the English football system. Without gigantic amounts of overseas money i think Man utd, The Nomads, Liverpool and Spurs would be the natural top four financially, but that doesnt mean these clubs would have a god given right to be tops, football always surprises, its why we love it. I think there is a fundemental change taking place in the way English teams play, a transformation into a south american/ european style. And this development doesnt sit easy on the eye with British football goers. Tippy tappy, lone strikers, two defensive midfielders, is anti football, in my opinion. Low cost attacking football is a conundrum in todays modern game, if we dont follow the footballing coaching hurd which root do we take. Lots of folk have had their say about the predicament we find ourselves in, from Sugar to Comoli to Pleat to Hoddle to Brazil. And they cant all be wrong. Thats enough waffle from me, where is my dear Ramos when you need some light entertainment ! Coys.
     
  7. Nick Guest

    I will cut to the chase.


    For me its this.


    The new Stadium design is s99t. (Internally mainly).
    And the players want to lose Enic out ect.. so we have some new money blood who can look at WHL and see its different to the Emeirates.

    Strong corners strong shoulders.

    You heard it he first (A stadium is for Life Not Just For Christmas)

    WE ARE SPURS
     
  8. Nick Guest

    Only one more post from me and its this.

    Arsenal 4 Tottenham 4

    Best game ever? No second best the best was we best West Ham in that last minute. But this was a beautiful game. O the 3 4 at Sheffield Wed Klinsmann dive game werent bad.



    And look at our guy here. Just great stuff.

     
  9. Felon82 Well-Known Member

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    For once im generally happy theres an international break, hopefully the players use this time to focus and be chomping at the bit to put things right.
     
  10. Ramos43

    Ramos43 Active Member

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    I'm baaaaaaaccccccckkkkkkkkk!!!!!

    So, who missed me then? :cool: ...

    I thought I'd take some time out from my well deserved sabbatical to throw my weight of support behind our under fire Head Coach Mauricio Pochettino.

    It's fair to say that I did not anticipate/expect the difficult start to the new season the team has endured, and like many of you (no doubt) I have been underwhelmed by some of the football I have seen from Spurs over the last few weeks.

    But has below par performances and poor results in the 1st ELEVEN games of the season done anything to change my belief that Pocettino IS the right man to bring the type of success I certainly crave to this football club? ABSOLUTELY NOT!!!!

    Teething problems, when you appoint a new manager with such a CLEARLY DEFINED philosophy and methodology are not uncommon.

    Louis van Gaal is experiencing something similar at Man Utd (as he has stated that he has done at previous clubs) and Brendan Rodgers also had a difficult 1st year at Liverpool if memory serves me correctly.

    At the end of day, the fact that Spurs are experiencing these issues now (at the beginning of the season), although may be a rather sobering experience for us as supporters after all the excitement of his arrival, can be seen as an EXTREMELY positive thing moving forward, as this is allowing Poch to see EXACTLY who he can trust and bring with him, and who he can't.

    The facts are, and have always been in my mind, that Spurs have an extremely talented squad in terms of physical and technical qualities, but have always been found wanting with regards to arguably the most important attribute which is the MENTAL side of the game.

    That is why Spurs can surrender a 3-0 lead to Man Utd and lose 3-5. Why we can squander a 2-0 lead at the Emirates and lose handsomely. Why we can conspire blow a 13 point lead over Arsenal in the race for 4th. And also why we can struggle with expectation/motivation when coming up against teams less talented than our own especially when playing at home.... The list which adds weight to this argument goes on and on....

    Mentally Spurs have always been fragile.
    Yes there have been moments where the side has defied the norm in that respect, but generally the team (no matter who has played in it) has reverted to type.

    This is the most important change MP has to make, along with bringing in players (over the next few transfer windows) that are committed to carrying out his demands on match day.

    The risk with the Argentine was always going to be that SOME of the players weren't going to buy into the type of rigorous work ethic, both in training and in-game situations (be it mentally or physically) that are required to perfect the type disciplined, yet high-risk, playing style Pochettino favours.

    Listen, I could be here all day/night breaking down whats going on with the team/club at the moment, but the main point I wanted to convey is that I am 100% behind the manager and am as CONVINCED that Mauricio will prove a HUGE success at WHL given time, patience and support.

    To write him off after 3/4 months, ELEVEN games and ONE transfer window is a COMPLETE and UTTER NONSENSE!!!
    I mean, the guy is still learning about the squad he largely inherited.

    Would I have made some of the decisions he has made regard team selection etc,etc, etc? Probably not.

    But choosing to support someone is NOT about questioning their motives, reasoning or every decision.

    It's about standing by them. Believing in them. And trusting that they know what they want to achieve and how to go about accomplishing their objectives....
    ....AND THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT INTEND TO DO!!!
    Poch has a 5 year contract and I would delighted to see him at least fulfill the duration of that contract.

    On a side note, though, I DO believe that it's time that Levy abandon the idea of a DOF. Not because I don't believe it can work, but simply because it leaves less room for debate (which in turn can cause uncertainty around the club).

    It would also eradicate the opportunity for the HC to use 'not having full control over transfers as an excuse (alla AVB)' should their tenure at the club not work out.
     
    Last edited: November 20, 2014
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  11. notnats

    notnats Well-Known Member

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    Welcome back Ramos, nice to see your still with us and of course you were missed although I did suspect that you were lurking around somewhere. I think we've all been underwhelmed with the football served up of late and for me the home form in particular has been a disgrace. For the sake of stability I agree that its to early for talk of sacking the manager and that Poch needs time but unlike your good self im not at all convinced that Poch will be a huge success at this club or at this level. There's a multitude of reasons as to how and why this club is in the current state that it is in, where to start? who knows ? im not even going to bother at this moment except for that to me its obvious that the players are just not buying into this said philosophy of the new manager, and tbh im not sure that he even has a clear philosophy of his own, its all very AVB.
     
  12. Ramos43

    Ramos43 Active Member

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    I CANNOT 'blame' you for feeling my presence on this website even in my absence. It's perfectly understandable given my contribution to this particular forum in the past. So, I should take your 'suspicions', no matter how far fetched they may be, as a compliment....Indeed, I am everywhere!

    I believe what Poch is missing with regards to stamping his philosophy on the team/squad as a whole is a breakthough result.

    A game, performance AND result against (preferably good level) opposition where the team commits 100% to Pochs ideas and 'carries them out to a T'.

    This would help transform (the squad as a whole) flagging belief into a burgeoning sense of knowing with regards to the philosophy, whilst greatly improving their own confidence in being able to carry out their instructions.

    THIS IS IMPERATIVE FOR ANY MANAGER WHO IS MAKING SPECIFIC/ TAILORED DEMANDS OF PLAYERS.

    Pochettino was able to achieve this early on during his tenure at Southampton which meant the players were determined to continue to practice the managers methods, and just as importantly, confident in their ability to do so .

    However,in his brief time at Spurs the side has only had a succession of nearly moments when it has come to marrying said philosophy with desired result. i.e Sunderland away, Arsenal away and City away.

    For me, there seems to be a deep-seated culture at the club, whereby the idea of grafting, a strong team ethic and performing whilst out of a comfort zone seems to something of a foreign concept amongst a section of the group.

    Too many players within the changing room seem to be content with the notion of playing for one of the biggest clubs in Europe, getting paid good money and living a comfortable/cosy life in one of the best city's in the world.

    Too many seem unable/unwilling to stand up and be counted when the chips are down, with the generally laid back persona that exists within the dressing meaning that their are too few with the personality to rally the troops in times of need.

    Arsenal have the same problem, at the moment, although players with the characters of Wilshere, Oxlaide and Sanchez offers Wenger some much needed alternatives in that respect.

    A lack of the types of BIG personalities it takes to drive talented/good teams to being successful meant that Kaboul was the obvious and only real choice when it came to choosing a captain lead this team.

    To be fair, I think Levy identified the need for leadership sometime ago hence the reason Spurs embarked upon a transfer policy which included signing players who have been captains at some level or another.i.e. Vertonghen, Lloris, Holtby, Adebayor, Fazio, Stambouli, Chiriches, etc.

    I expect the return of a potential future captain in Kyle Walker to make a HUGE impact on the team from an balance/tactical standpoint.

    I flagged up months ago that Pochs system requires two adventurous, athletic types of full back on either side, to make up for the lack of width caused by having two inverted wingers in the mould of Chadli and Lamela.
    I also think it's worth the Argentine considering playing Eriksen off the left, in a position where he was so successful last term with Chadli moving into a more central position.

    The Dane is FAR , more comfortable when he is facing goal as opposed to playing with his back towards it, and playing off the left would mean that he would benefit from having 'the picture in front of him', as it were.

    Playing off of the left would also mean that when the Dane does drift or come infield from his position that he is harder to pick up by the opposition.

    Anyway, it's clear that the team needs to improve if they are to make the most of the opportunities that have presented themselves this season, and I'm confident that they will.

    But what I'm even more confident about is Pochettino building a team that will both thrill and entertain us all, in equal measure.
     
  13. Felon82 Well-Known Member

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    Ramos

    You have been very confident about this end product team on the horizon for quite some time, never seems to materialise though does it?
    Poch has so far had 1 window where he bought a reserve keeper, a reserve LB, a reserve CB, a young CB/make shift RB who combined mainly sit on the bench and offer very little, what makes you think another 2 windows of masterstroke signings like these will improve the team?
    Pochetino has given the captaincy to Kaboul early doors and after witnessing him on many occaisions playing like a clown and being probably the only CB in the league that ducks headers in their own box is still persisting with him A in the first team and B as the captain- this would be laughable if it wasnt so tragic.
    Then theres Ade as vice surely as a motivator/character/leader even your educated self can see the irony in that? Again after witnessing him play still giving him a starters spot and keeping him as vice is not good management if these to are supposed to be the 'leaders' in the team and playing regular.
    The persistent same formation against all opposition with a tried tested and failed system, being played repeatedly without the personell to execute it is again poor management.
    A soft side devoid of work ethic is soley down to poor management of players atitudes and inability to motivate, translate and hold an authority over the team.
    There has been no evidence of high pressing attacking football, its dull, slow, disjointed, predictable & weak. Its AVB but worse.
    My point is that theres not a lot Poch is doing to gain or inspire confidence in the players or the fans at the moment. Players have had time to settle, Poch is supposed to be this manager with a 'philosophy' yet its going more pear shaped as it goes on.
    Its an utter shambles there is no evidence of progression whatsoever.
     
  14. Ramos43

    Ramos43 Active Member

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    Listen, lets get one thing straight; I am not picking the team, or buying and selling the players, because if I was my Spurs team would probably look a lot different to the one we see today.

    Felon

    To save me from repeating myself, read my first post as my response to most of your questions, I believe, lay within that (or indeed the second post)

    As far as the new signings go; we signed one of the best keepers in the league to act as back-up to one of the best keepers in the world (a strange decision by all parties, but a good one for the club).

    We signed one of the most promising LB's in the league, to act as COMPETITION to another promising LB. With a view to seeing them both raise their games and improve all aspects of their game.

    Eric Dier is a young talented British player who has shown a versatility that has served the club well in the past and will no doubt do so in the future. The kid has bundles of potential.

    Fazio is a quality Argentine International CB who will prove his worth once he settles into the league and gets his feet under the table. Very good signing for the club, in my humble (but educated) opinion!;)

    Etc, etc, etc...

    Like I said during the summer, Spurs and Poch signed players in the off-season with a view to developing COMPETITION within a squad he believed in, without maybe signing players to walk into an already talented team.

    Pre-season done us no favours in terms of pitting the squad against quality opposition in order to gauge where the lads really were in their development.

    As a result, Pochettino is only, really, LEARNING about his team now!


    And some of the players who performed VERY well in pre-season (Holtby and Lennon) are not in the first team picture right now.

    Again, I would NOT have made some of the decisions the manager has, had I been in charge!

    The high press when deployed correctly has bore it's fruits this season so far. Arsenal and Man City away are JUST two occasions where goals have come off the back of Pochs tactical input.

    The thing about managers with a CLEARLY DEFINED philosophy, ESPECIALLY at NEW clubs, can be that they have a tendency to be stubborn in their approach to matches.

    Brendan Rogers does not ask his players to play in a different style depending on the opposition. Neither does Wenger, Klopp or Guadiola (for example).

    At a new club where you are trying to implement your ideas and stamp your print on the players (at all levels) this is particularly understandable/common. It's about familiarizing the players with a new system, tactics, mentality, etc,etc

    I suppose the question that, that approach raises is; Does that singled- minded stance show enough flexibility in games where the opposition are maybe superior in terms of skill set and take a similar approach?

    Mourinho for example is a manager who has done VERY well with a 'philosophy' that seems to be 'win at any cost'.

    He generally sets up his teams to counter the oppositions threats and expose their weaknesses, rather than mainly/solely focusing on the strengths and performance levels of his own team.

    Different ways of doing things. Both have there own merits. Both come with there own pitfalls.

    11 games and one transfer window is NOT enough time to judge whether a manager (of Pochettinos dimension and style) is going to be a success! To suggest anything else is ridiculous. I mean it REALLY is!

    MP was given a 5 year contract, not a 5 month one. Lets give him time to build a side in his own image, eh!

    Listen, if Spurs end the season in 15th place with the C1C and the Europa League in the bag, most of us would be laughing!

    Long way to go this campaign and Spurs, despite the poor start, are still in the thick of things with Liverpool, Arsenal, Everton and Man Utd all within touching distance.


    For me, the biggest issue is the players capacity/commitment to fulfilling the managers demands. Especially as they are forward thinking, modern and proven ideas that the manager is trying to implement.

    As I say, Poch will be noting the displays/efforts of the lads with a view to making changes over the coming windows. And he will be ruthless in his assessments!

    PS. Anyone seen Paulinho? ;)
     
    Last edited: November 21, 2014
  15. Nick Guest

    Only one word for it.


    Disappointing.


    But Fergeson never won nothing in three years then won EVERYTHING.

    I like the Chairman. No Problem with him or the manager.

    JAN V has to play and the under 18 and under 21 are under performing. I what their results closely.
     
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  16. notnats

    notnats Well-Known Member

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    Lovely words but all the flowery descriptions and words of praise for poch does not change the fact that at this stage he looks completely out of his depth, does not at all have a clear philosophy other than a copy of the AVB blueprint and as a result the players are not buying into this rigid style that does not suit this team. we dont press, suicidal high line, no pace no width no disipline, no fecking idea. Why would they buy into it? it didnt work for AVB. id love to see poch succeed but so far the only thing that is evident is that we are playing our worst football in years and on current form we might well be fighting it out at the relegation end of the table. This managerial appointment was a massive risk at a time when this club needed stability and a strong manager. Poch has a five year contract but unless he can motivate this lot and get some results soon, well we all know what happens next.
     
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  17. notnats

    notnats Well-Known Member

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    Its easy to compare Poch with managers like SAF who had shaky starts at new clubs but mostly its pointless. For every Sir Alex who took a few years then won EVERYTHING, theres an endless list of forgotten managers who started badly, finished badly and got sacked. Yes it did take Sir Alex a few years to get his team playing but as a manager he was already a proven winner, titles with st Mirren and Aberdeen in a league dominated by Celtic and Rangers not to mention success in the euro cup winners cup so again its a tad pointless comparing a novice manager who has achieved nothing at all with arguably the greatest manager ever.
     
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  18. Nick Guest

    Not for a minute am i saying Pooch is in any way SAF, in fact far from it. I personally think we should always have a 442 when at home and 451 away, and yes i have been critical of Pooches decisions and on occasion team selections and tactics. But i think he can get us through this sloppy patch. However, he needs to do something in Jan i think sell a couple bring a few in definitely. Don't let this under performing team think they are being rewarded for failure. But a couple of strikers at home tell the wingers to cross the ball at least 3 times before 30 minutes is oon the clock (went if the keeper gets it so they get their confidence up) a then ask the questions like who is Ekrison's replacement and why are there only 3 strikers at the club ect.
     
  19. big fran Guest

    Welcome bk RAMOS. I'm sure most of us would agree that for now the best thing would be to stick with pooch as there is clearly a problem with the players mentality and or attitude in the way they seem to dispatch manager after manager with aplomb. Its fair to say a stronger manager would be able to address the cancer quicker ie a mourinho Ferguson van gaal but them sort of managers are out of our league. Although a pulis or redkbapp would not be. We keep hearing that managers need time and to an extent I'd agree but languishing in the lower half of the league we are not only lacking substance but also the style promised. It is not too much IMO to ask a manager to get players onside when asking players to buy into ' I want to play expansive free flowing football and work hard for each other to get the fans onside and get top four' should it with an already good squad and adding four/five players of your own and a full preseason to work with them.
    Undoubtedly pooch is struggling and at present looks out of his depth. There is no notable spine to the team barring lloris and the useless captain kaboul(Ramos?) and we are seeing a constant chopping and changing of players from one game to the next indicating the manager either doesn't know his best 11 or my personal fear he is afraid to single out a best 11 for fear
    of upsetting others mainly senior players! All his signings have flopped apart from dier who recently looked fatigued at full back. I'd like to see a switch to centre half for him. I'd like to see personal differences put personally aside and a spine of lloris dier vertonghen capoue dembele Kane and soldado picked week in and out. Walker obviously to come bk into the side with the rest scrapping for places.
    Letting fans faves sygi and Sandro leave for stambouli now look even more ridiculous than they did at the time!
     

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