An ode to (soon-to-be departing) Mousa Dembele

Discussion in 'Tottenham forum' started by Josh Bolton, June 18, 2018.

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  1. antony Active Member

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    Brave shout Jam! I think with this one you might be in the minority? As for me both Keane and Viera would have been far more influential than Moussa to the point where we would have seen more silverware than we have this past decade because of their true world class status.
  2. antony Active Member

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    For what its worth here is my definition of world class....

    A player who more often than not can influence a team and his teammates. Have the ability to motivate by example and as a result turn a losing situation into a victory and do this time and time again!

    Has or does Dembele done this? Not for me!
  3. Felon82 Well-Known Member

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    In fact Jam while we're at it just look at the individual accolades the Likes of Kantè Busquets Keane Viera Essien etc all boast ie EPL/Laliga/Ligue 1/Young player/CL -
    Best 11s, Players player........ Etc etc they are widely recognised for their actual contribution to the game just look them up lists as long as your arm of recognition. That's besides the Trophies they've scooped as a collective.

    Mousa is so quietly world class only the super elite must've seen it because if you check Dembeles individual honours he's not even been awarded a player of the month in his entire career.
    Last edited: June 26, 2018
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  4. Remy Uwilin

    Remy Uwilin Active Member

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    You can criticize his contribution and demand more from him, especially considering how gifted he is. That's all fair, but we also ought to be able to acknowledge his play and improvement; especially in the last 3 or so seasons. There have been a lot of gifted players who have never reached their potential, some of it falls on the players but also on how they were managed. Look at how AVB & Sherwood all played Dembele, you had players like Mason ahead of him in the pecking order (don't get me wrong, Mason was a fabulous & fearless player).

    However to say that he has achieved nothing and only passes backwards or ghosts past people when it is safe areas. That's
    disingenuous, there have been multiple of games in which all our players were under pressure and nobody was looking to get on the ball; Dembele has stepped up and calmed the waters.

    The frustrating thing is, I think that he makes it look so easy that most people might not acknowledge how important his role in the team is. The flip side of that is also that, unfortunately he doesn't do it consistently enough to earn that top world class rank. I wouldn't put him in the top with the Modric, Kroos, Busquets...but right beneath that tier. Probably with Khedira and the likes.

    Lastly, I'm not sure Poch is willing to let him go before securing a dependable replacement. Players are usually in their prime still in the early 30s until maybe 33. We can definitely get 2 good season out of him, at least until we find a better talent. Moving into a new stadium, this is not the team to break the core of the team.
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  5. antony Active Member

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    So you agree Dembele is a top player but not world class?
  6. Jam Guest

    What an unbelievably strange definition.. can't say I've ever heard anything like it.. you need not overthink it so

    A world class player is simply one who is theoretically good enough to play for any side.. to be world class is to be considered one of the best in your position in the world.. whether that is top 5 or top 10 is irrelevant.. it is a mythical status entirely dependent on the player in question

    Invariably it infers a supreme level of technical skill.. though with centrebacks and pure destroyers that bar is lower.. it also suggests a uniqueness of ability that is lacking in others

    World class teams rarely consist entirely of world class players.. likewise not all world class players play for world class teams.. you will find that generally the best players will gravitate to the best clubs.. but like with anything there are exceptions

    Thus team honours will always be a secondary consideration in the appraisal of an individual's ultimate quality

    The difference between a player who is considered very good and one who is considered world class is marginal.. I would suggest there is no in-between.. so while I respect your ultimate opinion on Dembele.. though not your reasoning for arriving there.. we're basically splitting hairs here.. let's leave it at that
  7. Felon82 Well-Known Member

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    So Good Not a Single Personal Accolade to back it up Jam or is he still building aswell?
    Must be the most anonymous World Class Player of all Time.
    Never made a Single PFA team of the year.........

    Wanna know why Jam?

    Not because he isn't good enough but it's because he's Never done anything memorable to warrant it.
    Last edited: June 27, 2018
  8. Jam Guest

    Another astute post Remy.. as always

    A couple of thoughts..

    No disrespect to Mason but he was an effort player and nothing more.. Poch starting him was symbolic.. he admitted as much.. the others? Incompetence most likely

    To be fair Dembele should not be directly compared to Modric or Kroos.. his most natural position is defensive midfield and it has been some years since he consistently played as a true central midfielder.. Casemiro would be the one to compare him with at Real Madrid

    Whether you consider Dembele world class or not he absolutely destroyed Khedira in Turin and similarly overshadowed him at Wembley.. this is a player who spent a number of years at Madrid and won a Champions League and World Cup
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  9. Big fran Guest

    As always it comes down to opinions in judging anything in football. We all have them. For my money at his best he's unplayable and rarely many if any seldom get the better of him. The most important aspect of midfield play as a player or part of a duo or trio is to get a grip of it and control and dictate the tempo of the game added with game management. That is where Dembele excels and that's how I judge him. This all comes before goals assists key passes and all that nonsense.
    Could he have done it more and more consistently yeah for sure he could but the last couple of years he's been fantastic for us and will take some replacing. The fact that Avb and sherwood could not see it or harness his talent is more a reflection on themselves than him. I'm certain that his inconcistencies added to his injuries have kept him out of the clutches of Madrid and Co.
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  10. Jam Guest

    Felon.. with all due respect.. could I ask you a favour? because I am willing to discuss football with you.. for the most part.. despite your often outlandish notions and perpetually despondent nature

    Could you please desist with your random capitalisation? I assume you do it for emphasis but I've never seen anything like it.. I find your posts quite jarring to read and that's not even taking into account their content

    There are other methods of emphasis which are far more easy on the eye.. bold.. italics.. full capitalisation (in small measures)

    Do as you please of course.. and don't take it personally.. but I can't guarantee I will continue to read what you write in that manner
  11. Felon82 Well-Known Member

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    I do apologise Jam if my use of capitals has harmed you in any way.
    Clearly it's been harder to take than the realisation that Dembele has massively underachieved and is not world class.
  12. Jam Guest

    Best post on this thread
  13. Jam Guest

    Thank you Felon

    To your last post.. you raise a fair enough point.. I would say this

    Dembele is an atypical player.. an exception.. not just in style.. but across the breadth of his entire career.. if you're unsure what I mean by that then read up on his history

    I appraise him for the player he is today.. indeed the player he has been the last few years

    I have watched him closely.. the eye test is enough for me.. though stats of note and professional opinion support my viewpoint.. there is no one like him.. he is world class for me as a defensive midfielder.. any unpopular sentiment here is certainly not going to change my opinion regarding that

    I appreciate you've expressed an admiration for his technical skill.. just as I appreciate you have attached numerous disclaimers to that.. none of them flattering

    So let's get to the crux of the discussion and be done with it

    I rate players at this level in broad terms relative to their position.. Average.. Good.. Very Good.. World Class

    Some do not fit neatly into those categories.. so I might suggest a player is Good to Very Good.. that is fine

    Given that.. do me a favour and give me your final appraisal of Dembele in one of those simple terms.. no caveats thanks.. no would haves or should haves.. no further explanations

    What is your ultimate rating of the player?
  14. Felon82 Well-Known Member

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    He is a Very Good player but not World Class because he's never pushed himself to be.
  15. Cheshuntboy Guest

    It would be interesting to know whether 'Dembele is world class' (despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary) is yet another of the shibboleths of the true Tottenham supporter, along with 'Lloris is a great keeper' (really?), 'Redknapp was a treacherous chancer' (as well as managing the most exciting Spurs side of the past thirty plus years), and 'Levy is the best chairman in the PL' (well, certainly the best paid). As Felon points-out, Dembele has failed to trouble the scorer on any and every measure in six years at Spurs, and yet his fan club just can't see that he's style without substance personified. But it is just opinion (albeit some people's opinions are better-founded than some others).
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  16. Jam Guest

    Thank you sir.. we are not so far apart in our assessment as would have seemed

    Out of interest.. how would you appraise the other defensive midfielders at Tottenham in similar terms? Dier Wanyama Winks
  17. Felon82 Well-Known Member

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    Dier- Average to Good
    Wanyama - Good
    Winks - Average
  18. Big fran Guest

    Which begs the question why are we contemplating selling clear our best cm option with absolutely nobody out there on the horizon to replace him who would not be a punt? It's madness. Make him play his 12 months out and see then who is out there. Who we have coming thru and where Winks is?
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  19. Felon82 Well-Known Member

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    Fran I don't think anyone is pushing him out the Club, but it's come to the point in his Career where do the club cash in?
    Does he want a last bumper Contract elsewhere?
    He's had 6 years to impact/drive this team on and overall has turned up for 2 of them, it may be a stretch to find many more technically gifted but in terms of actual point winning/making contribution at the moment a player that can score 3+ and Assist 3+ goals a season would already be an Improvement in out put.

    How many times have we all watched Spurs in the last 6/7 years and seen a team bang its head against a brick wall utterly clueless in how to get past it dominating everything but the 1 thing that matters?
    And in turn we've seen aimless snail pace passing and possession? Dembele has been one of the most guilty of this just watching the game coast to nothing.
  20. Jam Guest

    Interesting.. and fairly close to the mark I would say.. though I would rate Dier and Wanyama slightly higher when on form

    One thing is certain.. we do not want to pair the two together going forward
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