Tottenham's progress, priorities and pursuit of trophies

Discussion in 'Tottenham forum' started by Craig Emanuel, October 27, 2017.

?

What would you rather this season?

  1. Win a domestic cup

    18.2%
  2. Champions League qualification

    81.8%

Share This Page

  1. Craig Emanuel Member

    Likes Received:
    71
    [​IMG]

    There seems to be a gathering tide of opinion that Spurs now have to win something to prove their progress as a club. That the achievements of this young, exciting team essentially mean very little with nothing tangible to show for it. That Mauricio Pochettino cannot establish himself among the elite of football management until he lifts a shiny piece of silverware aloft.

    On Wednesday night after the game I got into an altercation with a fellow Spurs fan in the toilets at Wembley. He was incandescent with rage after we had thrown away a two goal half time lead, in what was one of the most unprofessional halves of football I can recall from a Spurs team since Pochettino's arrival. It was unacceptable. No doubt about that.

    The fan in question though, was making comparisons of Pochettino with Mourinho - that one knows how to win these games and win trophies and the other is a mere novice. That we've got no chance of winning the league so we should concentrate on the cups. And further still, that maybe it is time to consider whether we have the right man at the helm.

    My view was unequivocal. As a man in my mid 30s, who has been going to White Hart Lane (and now Wembley) regularly for the past 25 years, I can say with some conviction that we currently have the best manager of my lifetime as a Spurs fan. He has transformed the club into a powerhouse of English football on a meagre budget and consistently developed youngsters into Champions League quality players. Our evolution under Pochettino has been quite remarkable - culminating in a deserved draw just a week ago, at the home of the best team in world football at the present time, with a host of players missing. We currently sit top of a group featuring European heavyweights, Real Madrid and Borussia Dortmund And I feel that this is not the pinnacle. We are still improving, still evolving under the Argentine's tutelage.

    After a fairly rigid implementation of the 4-2-3-1 system in this young team's breakthrough season of 2015/16, he then established an alternative 3-4-2-1 last year to give us greater flexibility. We are now seeing an extension of this 3 at the back system to a more adventurous 3-5-2 formation. Due to the fluidity of these systems and Pochettino's ability to alternate between systems throughout our games without even changing personnel, we have a dynamism and unpredictability that gives us an advantage against more rigid opponents. The players are becoming more accustomed to playing in areas rather than strict positions and many are comfortable playing in a variety of roles. It has echoes of the total football first introduced to the world by Rinus Michel's Ajax team of the 1970s.

    I understand the frustrations of some fans - the media are trying to build a "now or never" narrative. We are being told on a daily basis that the vultures are circling around our young stars, ready to offer them all significant wage hikes. Harry Kane to Real Madrid. Danny Rose and Eric Dier to Manchester United. Toby Alderweireld to Manchester City. If you believe everything you read, by the time we get into the new stadium I'm not sure we'll actually have any players left to represent us! The fact is, unlike the situation up the Seven Sisters road, our players are all on long term contracts. We will only sell who we want to sell. These rags need to fill column inches and they often do so through baseless speculation.

    We would dearly love to win a trophy of course, but it is by no means now or never. Harry Kane will not be leaving in the summer. No chance. He loves the club and will be focused on leading us into the new stadium. There will be no wholesale exodus.

    Let's get some perspective. Under this manager we have improved year on year. We have competed in the last two title races, secured back to back Champions League qualification for the first time (without even the need for a qualifier), and just last season we smashed our record Premier League points total, scored the most goals in the league and conceded the fewest. "BUT WHAT HAVE WE WON?" I hear you say.

    No team has a divine right to win trophies. And certainly not one who has a wage bill a fraction of the other title contenders, whose net transfer spend has been negative over the last five years and who are ploughing fortunes into a new stadium, having only recently opened a state of the art training centre. We are punching far above our weight at the moment and we need to recognise that. But this is a club moving in the right direction and laying the foundations to compete at the very highest level.

    We do not have the resources to compete on all fronts at the present time. That is the reality. So the question is, do we prioritise the lesser trophies so we can argue with other fans about the number of notches on our bedpost, or do we prioritise the league and European football?

    For me, the last few years have been the most enjoyable of my football supporting life. We haven't won a trophy but I have regularly seen my team destroy opponents, go toe-to-toe with the big boys, we have finished above every club in the country over the past two years (including Woolwich) and played some of the most scintillating football I have ever seen at Spurs. There is a unity running through the club, between the board, the manager, the coaching staff, players and fans - the bond that links us has never been so strong in my living memory. The players fight for each other and for the shirt like I've never known (see the Battle of Stamford Bridge in May 2016).

    Would I swap the last few seasons of Pochettino for another League Cup success under Juande Ramos II - no bloody way. The way I see it, trophies are vanity, sustained performances and results are sanity. Hopefully the latter will eventually result in the former, and maybe just maybe, it will truly be a trophy worth shouting about.

    In doing what we've done, and somewhat neglecting the domestic cups (despite reaching the League Cup final in 2015 and an FA Cup semi final this year), we have helped to secure our seat at the top table of European football for two years running, which is essential for many reasons.

    1. It generates a huge amount of revenue, particularly important at a time when we are spending circa £800m on a new stadium.

    2. It builds our global brand - the purists won't like this, but again this is an essential part of modern football and helps to bring in greater revenues from abroad and secure larger sponsorship deals which ultimately helps us to remain competitive on the field. Recent discussions amongst the Premier League clubs about reapportioning foreign TV revenue pitted "the big six" against the rest. Could we honestly say that five years ago, we would have been considered as one of the truly elite clubs of English football? We probably sat in a second tier alongside Everton. Now we are an established part of this so-called "big six".

    3. It should help us to attract better players such as Serge Aurier and Fernando Llorente and, perhaps more importantly, keep our best players who want to be testing themselves against the best in world football.

    There will always be disappointments. This is competitive sport - you'll never win every game. Wednesday night was clearly more galling given that it meant so much to our opponents - with Declan Rice, West Ham's young centre half, taking to Twitter to describe it as the best day of his life. The fans in the away end were celebrating the victory as though they'd won the Cup.

    But what did it really mean to Tottenham Hotspur?

    Pochettino denigrated the League Cup verbally before the game had even begun, essentially admitting it was an afterthought (along with the FA Cup) and he then reinforced that belief by making eight changes to the team that beat Liverpool so handsomely three days prior (albeit with ten full internationals still included). He gave our reserve keeper the captain's armband and gave our main talisman the night off. When we were chasing the game he then decided that it was more important to protect Llorente and Son, subbing them off ahead of the lunchtime kick off on Saturday at Old Trafford and the home game with Real Madrid next week. There are more important matches on the horizon and hauling ourselves back into this cup tie was not a priority. We ended the game with no recognised forward on the pitch.

    The players themselves showed little appetite or desire last night, particularly in that dire second half showing.

    And the fans didn't cover themselves in glory either, with only a 36,000 attendance demonstrating their apathy towards this competition.

    As much as many of us would like to bag that elusive trophy, if for nothing more than to be able to stick two fingers up at our detractors, Pochettino has his priorities correct. I don't buy into the notion that, had we won the League Cup in 2015, we would be in a better position to challenge for the more sought after honours now. Pochettino is right to say that "a League Cup won't change the life of Tottenham".

    Calling for his head is lunacy given what he has achieved thus far. We are standing on the precipice of greatness, of achieving something truly incredible. We must acknowledge that this a precarious house of cards, which is now built around Pochettino. He is the key man - lose him and then the exodus many are prophesying may follow. Hugo Lloris for one has already said that his future is inextricably linked with his manager's. I fear that many will be thinking the same.

    The one thing the game on Wednesday night should have done is give us a timely reminder of what we used to be, for the first 20 or so years of the Premier League era. Brittle. Weak. Spursy. This was the old Spurs rearing its ugly head again. Lose Pochettino, and we might well experience plenty more of those nights again.
     
    Bazza47, Mick, burnt and 1 other person like this.
  2. Felon82 Well-Known Member

    Likes Received:
    1,619
    Professional Sport in its essence is about Winning.
    How many other Top 6 sides put together top 4 challenges/title wins and A cup win?
    We have made progress and that progress has us on paper with arguably the top 3 playing squads and top 1/2 1st 11s in the league/country.
    In Poch we also have a great coach.

    So why are we scoffing at Trophies?
    Why are some fans Anti Trophies?
    Trophies that we don't win/can't win?

    The only reason I say can't win is because we don't have a hunger for them anymore.

    Your post which has many a good point Craig and being in my mid 30s I can see where a lot of your thinking/view comes from but it seems to me like the majority of our fan Base it's like we've forgotten what the sport is all about.

    Ive heard every excuse under the sun why we cant/shouldn't/won't, how we are underdogs the minnows punching above our weight, we have no divine right etc.

    It's soooooo Negative.

    It's like weve shackled ourselves into this behind the scenes we can't compete, we should just be thankful were up there mantra.
    When are we gonna banish this thinking from our minds and club and actually want for more and Take what's there/achievable?

    The media narrative is and will be there the whole time were playing this look at us were stepping on the big boys toes ain't it great but we're not serious about clearing up or god forbid winning something.
    The media and us fans have seen it time and again the rise and fall of this project and as blind as people like to play as if loyalty is something that has suddenly come back into the game, Money/Wages/Trophies are what fuel 99% of modern day footballers the latter 2 for the elite driven players.
    Getting a great Tune out of a quality assembled 11 is not forever sorted and that's it- tangible success will at least give it more longevity.

    Tell me a Cup or Top 4 question have we now become what we've ribbed Arsenal for being the last decade?

    Or should we be focused on producing both? Especially with the quality we have both player and managerial wise?

    One last point for all of our good work/quality/improvements you mention title challenges and battle of the bridge etc let's put those into perspective-

    We failed to retain a 2 goal lead at the Battle of the Bridge, thugging it out with them was counter productive and played into theirs and Leicester's hands who went on to win it at a canter. It resulted in us losing players and allowing our friends Arsenal to finish above us in 2nd yet in 3rd place we still make out we were the challengers it was a collapse.
    The following season/last we did actually put a challenge together and as the closing games were being played we bottled it at West Ham when we needed 3 points and let's face it West Hams cup final or not they are cr@p and we should be beating them could've at least cranked the heat up on Chelsea for the remaining games but they again went on to win at a canter.

    What do we have to show for these valiant efforts???
    The right to be mentioned in a big six?

    The Game is about Glory
     
    Last edited: October 27, 2017
  3. Felon82 Well-Known Member

    Likes Received:
    1,619
    What I'd like to know is from the Anti Trophies/PRO spreadsheet brigade is once this shiney new corporate money spinning vessel stadium is complete and U and I are filling it with the most expensive tickets in the country will you still be singing about merely being in the mix?
    Will you still be scoffing at other clubs spending big?
    Will you still be telling others about a project?

    When will you finally start demanding/expecting something more ?
     
    Last edited: October 27, 2017
  4. Gary Morton Guest

    I agree. This hankering after the league cup is for those managers who only plan a three year stay - Mourinho, Guardiola and any Chelsea boss. We don't have the money for this model - our only chance of success is looking term planning. Otherwise we'd be Everton.
     
  5. barney Guest

    cup wins are a must just trying to win the P/L is a lottery to win a domestic cup is 6/7 games of which we should try and play our best 11 at the end of players time in the league and nothing to show for it no medals no cups they have failed you cannot blame Walker for getting to 28 and nothing in the cabinet i think that is what Rose was thinking in hes tantrum moment to keep players on side you cannot keep dropping the best players for cup games and replace them with squad players some of which have not played a full game this season and expect the fans who pay good money on tickets and travel and then be happy when we get turned over by a lesser club i think that is why you are seeing lower gates at our home cup ties its the wont get fooled again effect Billy Nick would turn in hes grave at the thought of not trying to win a cup :(
     
    Felon82 likes this.
  6. Crimble123 Guest

    I won't answer every point you made but:
    1) No one is anti trophies. We all want to win trophies. But for the long term competitiveness of the club, we are better off concentrating on staying amongst the elite in the CL.
    2) A league cup win is not going to keep players at the club. The top players want to challenge for top honours.
    3) To say we "bottled it" at West Ham last season is absurd. We didn't bottle anything. We won 12 out of our last 13 league games. Even if we'd beaten West Ham, we still would have finished a distant second to Chelsea. We lost it in October/November.
     
    burnt likes this.
  7. Crimble123 Guest

    When we can compete financially with the likes of Chelsea and Manchester United. Until then it's a hope rather than an expectation. There's no lack of ambition from the club but we clearly have to build in a sustainable way.

    What exactly would you do differently?
     
    burnt likes this.
  8. Felon82 Well-Known Member

    Likes Received:
    1,619
    Either way we're throwing attainable cups for something we deem more important but don't achieve.

    And the majority of fans these days are Anti trophies hence they start screaming about how we don't need them anytime they're mentioned.

    So we're too good for cups but not good enough for Leagues or CL so we trundle along in no man's land and you think long term that'll keep our best interested???
     
  9. burnt Well-Known Member

    Likes Received:
    324
    Well said Crimble ,
    To suggest anyone is anti - trophies is ridiculous ... As for calling a team that won 13 out of their last 14 games bottlers , lol , crazy really ... We were 10 or more points behind Chelsea at one stage last season but we were the only side to make a race of it down the straight ... Now if we were 10 points ahead and got caught , then bottlers would be an apt accusation ... There are a lot of bottlers in this league if we're being accused of it over that ...

    Don't get me wrong here , Felon is a good skin , I agree with his views more often then not but I don't get his , what I see as a lack of understanding of this situation at this time ... Im sure he'd have a similar view about how we see it tho ...

    Also in fairness , we deff had a right go at winning the F.A Cup last year , just came up a bit short in the semi for what ever reason .. Also feel the team put out in the cup this week was well capable of winning that game and was far stronger then it could have been or was used in past seasons .. Might even have been stronger if everyone was fit ... We're gradually getting a squad together that's capable of having a right cut at all competitions i.m.o ...

    Harry out tomm , disasterous ... Hopefully he won't be out too long ... While we're on about injuries id love to know why the club seem so secretive when it comes to injuries .. We seem to get fed the same shite every time , " were not sure yet or it's nothing serious " only for players to go missing for months on end ... Lamela , Rose , Wanyama ....

    Things change so fast at times , it's only last Sunday eve everything seemed to be going the right way , few days later we've thrown away a 2 - 0 lead and got knocked out of the cup and our star player is out injured for our trip to Old Trafford .... The mood for now has deff changed ... C.O.Y.S ...
     
    notnats likes this.
  10. Felon82 Well-Known Member

    Likes Received:
    1,619
    Burnt you only have to look on here to see an army of people who will literally throw hate in the direction of anyone that dares mention a Trophy.
    They love devising every other way to explain what success is without actually winning something/anything.
    We are the only 'Big 6' member that doesn't have to win anything and thinks that its totally acceptable.
    With that attitude in the very foundations/core of the club we never will.
     
  11. Felon82 Well-Known Member

    Likes Received:
    1,619
    So with a team/squad that has finished 3rd/2nd respectively, had the meanest defence and top goalscorer we can't win trophies because Chelsea and Utd have more money?

    The quality you have on the pitch wins you the cups, the mentality/mindset of winners and a manager who juggles his priorities accordingly to achieve glory not fail/fall short at it.

    Player for player currently we match anyone and look down on most, so to say we hope to compete and that we shouldn't be going for trophies is a complete cop out.

    Which again fits into this ingrained attitude at the club that Winning things doesn't matter.

    IT DOES!
     
  12. It would be great to win a cup and we would all feel great for that short time. But the reality is that domestic cups have become insignificant compared to the league and champions league

    When I was a young lad the FA cup final was the event of the season, all the tv would be based around it, now it only becomes bigged up by the teams who win it when failing in the league - The Arse

    If we finish 2nd or 3rd again then yes there is a chance we may lose a few of our top guys BUT if we win A CUP but finish 6th or 7th - I guarantee we will lose players and start going BACKWARDS

    (Last line was for you Ramos :)
     
  13. Dace Member

    Likes Received:
    59
    Location:
    Phoenix.
    Imo the problem with the Carabao Cup was the nature of the loss.
    Can forgive squad/young players mistakes etc.
    But the likes of Dier and Alli doing nothing to stem the WH flow is galling.
    Dier wants the place in the middle of the park, will he keep that position when Wanyama is back, or in fact Winks (rested) is available, I think not.
    Alli, one dribble and fall over okay, another not so.

    Would not swap Poch for anyone, right manager at the right time and we are progressing nicely.

    Some players, perhaps they should go.

    Maybe make the Carabao Cup next season one for the youngsters, let N'Koudo (for example) get the whole 90 minutes and lets see.

    As for losing players, along with every other team we will lose some each season, it is the nature of the game.
    Perhaps Poch saw players in the game that really do not have what it takes, Dier is one who for me has regressed a little in the intensity he showed when first arriving, another is Alli, what a talent, will he become a world beater or become another Pennant.
     
  14. Big fran Guest

    See both sides of the argument here. We should and need to be winning trophies. It's not a case of a trophy or top four. There is no reason why both cannot be achieved. This was our best chance given a quarter final was at stake and when the Fact cup starts in Jan we don't know what our form or fixture pile up will be or whether we are still in the mix league wise or CL. A bird in the hand and all that..
    However. Poch did NOT throw this game. He did not throw in five or six un knowns from the U 21 set up etc. Even KWP didn't get a run out which a little harsh imo and probably surprised others. Winks didn't play given he is our only fully fit centre mid. Kane was in hindsight obvs injured and so to play both Son and llorente a risk tbf. So who has been left out exactly. Eriksen vorm Jan and a rookie centre half. Wow. Three or four players replaced by established full internationals.
    Felon you have spoke in the past about the need for better rotation,clever rotation and not splitting the eggs over two baskets when we have been at crossroads in the past two seasons. At times when we have had a quarter final in between two big league fixtures and gone out in both.
    I think your wrong on this one. At two nil up we see the game out everyone will applaud Poch for his changes. That was a much stronger 11 than I anticipated and probably stronger than what u expected also.
    What's happened here is pochs comments on the domestic trophies have blurred people's vision . He shouldn't have said it and was wrong to say it. I'm not sure he even means it. The 11 has got stronger each round and one or two more names would come in the next round I'm sure.
     
    Nomadico and notnats like this.
  15. notnats

    notnats Well-Known Member

    Likes Received:
    286
    Some interesting points here and the frustration from our lack of trophies is understandable especially from those fans in their mid 30s or so who, and it pains me to say, haven't experienced a cup win other than the last league cup.
    As a 50 something im lucky enough to have been around for some of our clubs greatest moments ( and worst) and im telling you that there is not a single Spurs fan on this planet who does not want to win silverware.
    In my time we've rarely been title contenders but we've had some glorious cup wins and we will again.
    This current team is as good a team as I've seen and not only are they good enough to win a trophy they deserve to win a trophy. But if we do get knocked out of a comp unlike some im not going to go to pieces over it. My greatest memory is winning the UEFA in 84 and id like to see us lift something again, preferably while i still have teeth.
     
    Nomadico likes this.
  16. Nomadico Well-Known Member

    Likes Received:
    271
    Location:
    Panama
    When Poch speaks to the press his English is not the best and I'm sure he did not mean to say what he did,and as Big Fran pointed out the team were not that weak and should have seen the game out at 2-0 so move on..COYS
     
    Mick likes this.

Guest comments allowed! Use 'Add your comment' button

Share This Page