Same old Tottenham.....

Discussion in 'Tottenham forum' started by Mattj78, September 21, 2014.

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  1. Ramos43

    Ramos43 Active Member

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    Well, I must say that I'm rather proud of you Fran. Acceptance is the first step to self-development....;) And, because of my feeling towards you, at this moment in time, I have decided that I'm going to help you out with a couple of things.:D

    1. Firstly, while 'Mr. Ramos' is a perfectly acceptable way to address me, I have often found that in the past 'SeƱor/ Profesor Ramos' has a somewhat nicer ring to to it, and is, also, more in keeping with my Spanish heritage .
    2. Secondly, the quote your looking for is 'EXTENSIVE knowledge and DEEP understanding of the game'. Now, I know that quotations aren't really your strong suit, but if you are going to attempt to repeat copy/something I have said previously, then it's probably best that you try and get it right, eh! It just looks like you haven't done your homework otherwise, and nobody with a studious and continuously evolving mind, such as mine, wants to be a part of that! ;)

    Now that there's cleared up....

    I don't think it takes a genius to work out where Spurs fell short on Sunday. The definition of lacklustre, the players simply did NOT move the ball around the pitch with the kind of TEMPO required to open up, or even trouble, a well orgainised and disciplined WBA side.

    Regardless of the make up of your team, the ONLY way to inject pace into the unit as a whole is pass and move off of the ball with a bit of vigour/enthusiasm and at no point during the match did the team appear to do those things.

    I mean it was SHOCKING and PAINFUL viewing for the majority of the match, with the players currently showing a complete inconsistency as far as following Pochettino philosophy is concerned.

    Pressing as individuals, rather than as a unit, the Spurs players stunk of the type of complacency that has hampered the teams fortunes over the last 5/6 years, at WHL.

    Too many players chose to have an 'off day' which is scandalous considering most of them had already been given a day off midweek in the EL.

    Pochettino NEEDED those individuals rested midweek to really stand-up and be counted on the weekend and unfortunately for the Argentinian NOBODY did.

    The likes of Lamela, Eriksen, Chadli and Ade were all ineffective for the most part, with the majority of those individuals playing the game at a pace that would spread throughout the rest of the team.

    Missing simple passes, devoid of any energy and lacking any sort of conviction in their work, the onus was on those four players to help set the tone for the rest of the team in a positive way, and inexplicably, for me, none of them did.

    Listen, WBA set-up well and played with the freedom of a side that had no real expectation placed upon them and it showed. The introduction of Lescott and Sessegnon proved key to visitors tactical plan and they were able to exploit Tottenham lethargy with consummate ease.

    Mauricio will NOT be remotely happy with anything he saw on the weekend, and yet the new Head Coach is not without blame for a performance that has to go down as one of the worst I have EVER witnessed at WHL (and that takes some doing).

    I imagine that the Argentine wanted to Fazio and Stambouli to make their full introductions to English football against Forest in the cup tomorrow and therefore decided to rest 2 players that had just played 75-90+mins on a heavy and dry pitch, in Belgrade, which is fine. Spurs should've had enough on the day to be able to beat a decent WBA side.

    But the failure to see a marked improvement from the side in the 2nd half, as well as some questionable substitutions will not reflect well on the Argentine, who would have LEARNED A HELL OF A LOT about certain individuals, as well as the attitude of squad he has at his disposal, in this match.

    However, with EVERY setback there is opportunity and a poor display from the majority of his side on Sunday will give a ruthless Pochettino every chance to make PLENTY of changes within the team, whilst being able to comfortably justify it to those who will be dropped.

    Out of the side that played WBA on the weekend, only Kaboul, Rose, Capoue and Lloris would've come out of the match being able to say they made a positive contribution.

    I, also, thought Dembele started brightly, and showed promise in his display, right up until the point where he lost the ball carelessly in front of the back 4 inviting WBA pressure . After that mistake the Belgian seemed to lose the confidence to keep trying to make things happen for the team.

    What is IMPERATIVE now is that the team that plays against Forest midweek bears the hallmarks of the side that Pochettino intends to play on the weekend, in order to help build confidence if nothing else. So a COUPLE of changes between the two games will be the order of the day, I think.

    With that in mind, My team vs Forest would be:

    Vorm

    Dier Kaboul/Fazio Vertonghen Davies

    Bentaleb Stambouli

    Townsend Dembele Chadli

    Adebayor (who keeps his place in the knowledge that Arsenal is the next EPL and hopefully that is a fixture that can kick-start the big man's season)


    Win the game and then make some changes with the Arsenal match on the horizon. With all things being equal, and the majority of those players coming through the midweek encounter unscathed, the only changes to that side for Arsenal would be:

    Lloris 4 Vorm

    Rose 4 Davies

    and

    Capoue 4 Betaleb

    At least Pochettino knows EXACTLY the kind of task he has on at Spurs now. Anyone can lose to Liverpool after virtually gifting them two goals but a defeat at home to WBA, particularly in that manner, will make the new manager acutely aware of the deep rooted issues that exist within the squad.

    But if there is anyone who can help solve these problems and get the team playing with greater consistency, it is Mauricio.
     
    Last edited: September 23, 2014
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  2. Mattj78

    Mattj78 Well-Known Member

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    I thought you had fallen down the loo my friend Ramos! Good to have you back mate. I think the changes made between matches needs to be minimal to avoid a lack of consistency. I think Fazio and Stambouli may start tomorrow, or at least one of them, and we may even see Kaboul dropped from the squad! He must up his game or his place must be under threat.
    West Brom is done now. Let's just hope it was a blip........hmmm.
     
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  3. Ramos43

    Ramos43 Active Member

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    LOL...Not sure about fall down the loo, but I must admit that thought about putting my head down it once or twice, after the match. ;)

    I actually thought Kaboul has played pretty well in the last two, but especially against WBA. It was just a shame that Chiriches, who had a good performance vs Sunderland, couldn't say the same.

    Younes was comfortable without necessarily being OUTSTANDING, given him a solid platform to now build on.

    Fazio and, especially Stambouli, have to start, because at things stand it is the midfield department that needs a bit leadership/strength of character/personality added to it.

    Stambouli would give Spurs that, with his desire and ability to instigate the high press. The midfielders, at the moment, look like they're unsure of when to 'stick or twist' and that is part of what is making Spurs so inconsistent in their performances at present. Another challenge for the team is to maintain a similar level of intensity in their press over the course of an entire match.

    This is where the new recruit can help as he already has the physical AND mental attributes to be able to do this. And in doing so, the team will hopefully be able to use Benjamin as a reference point. Now whether the Frenchman is ready to last a full game at EPL pace, at present, is another question entirely. But at least having the Frenchman in the side will help give the team some consistency in that respect.


    Spurs had started both recent matches against Sunderland and Partizan EXTREMELY well, closing down the opposition high up the field before eventually fading late on (which I believe to be more down to concentration and conviction in their work rather than stamina) and that is where having strong characters in the midfield can prove decisive.

    The good thing about what happen on the weekend is that although we were unable to capitalise, results went our way.

    I'll say it again, Kyle Walker is a MASSIVE part of what Pochettino is going to do, and the fullback return can't come soon enough for both me and the Argentinian.

    Dier has down well as a makeshift RB but he simply does not offer Spurs the pace ,power , drive, engine or attacking instincts that Kyle does.

    You always realise how important a player is/was for you when they are not around and Spurs tend to struggle when Walker is out of the team.

    I've already stated how playing with two inverted wingers (especially someone like Lamela who ALWAYS looks to cut inside) requires two athletic, marauding fullbacks to supply width and options in the attacking third.

    Having Kyle consistently overlapping the winger will not only stretch the opposition and force the opposing winger to put in a shift, it will also give the player in front of him another option/tool to use on the ball.

    Somebody like Lamela will benefit no end from the RB's presence!
     
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  4. Mattj78

    Mattj78 Well-Known Member

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    I am not a fan of inverted wingers unless as you say, there are overlapping full backs in the team as well.
    Ramos, what are your thoughts on why there seems to be an attitude problem at spurs. It isn't just this season, but last season as well, we saw a lack of passion all too often. I, of course would blame levy, but joking aside, do you have any opinion on what causes it? Is it something within the infrastructure perhaps?
     
    Last edited: September 23, 2014
  5. Spurporter Well-Known Member

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    Ramos might have a different answer, but in my opinion the problem is lack of leadership. Those able to lead off pitch are not the best on it, cannot lead by example. Sandro was a perfect example of such misconstrue last season. Being better leader than Capoue, he was very limited in his creative side lacking whole pitch vision the Frenchman possesses, lost his job to a better player with no leadership as a result. Kaboul is of same kind, just an adequate CB out there, no enough to truly lead on the pitch. Sure, not every team in EPL has Steven Gerrard, but Spurs just lack an average one(s) in that role. As a result, Head Coach is the only one to mobilize lads, which often fails to work without inner help.
     
    Last edited: September 23, 2014
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  6. Mattj78

    Mattj78 Well-Known Member

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    I have always said that the onus put on the Captain in this country is over the top, but we do need leadership on the pitch and at the moment their seems to be a real lack of it from anywhere on the field.
    Last season, we lost at Chelsea, and one of the worst things was that no one even shouted at each other. Managers like to see players having a bit of an argument, giving each other a constructive bollocking. We saw the same thing against Liverpool, Liverpool again etc and now we have seen it against WBA on Sunday, and I find it very concerning.
    You can understand why Sherwood lost it with them last season, although the way he did it was ill advised, and if the players don't take some ownership of the situation very soon, Pochettino may well be questioning the lack of characters too.

    Let's all get behind the manager and the players tomorrow and get this season kick started!!!

    COYS!!!!
     
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  7. burnt Guest

    So stambouli is flavor of the week this week , last week it was dembele next week god knows, have your pick .. Don't know much about him but i fail to see how much another defense minded midfielder is going to make .. As for walker, lol , the lads gone backwards since his first season with us .. If we,re relying on a right back who cant defend and has absolutely no positional sense , to turn things round , we,re in serious trouble .. I really worry about the state of some peoples memorys on this site ..
     
  8. Felon82 Well-Known Member

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    Until people realise (especially the club) that Lennon Townsend Paulinho Naughton Kaboul Rose Chiriches Soldado Chadli Adebyor Bentaleb are all sub standard gutless and will never be anything but liabilities and painfully inconsistant are moved on, then replaced with players that can and will deliver we will be stuck with this half hearted disjointed poor brainless football dross we are being treated to.
    Not negative- Not short sighted- Not impatient- just simply facts. They are not good enough- firstly you have to have the hunger to suceed which they all lack, then you need the character to produce which they all lack, the only consistancy they have is inconsistancy, then there is the quality which all of them lack in abundence not 1 of them delivers on a regular basis.
    26 goals in spain, a decent game in a blue moon, showed promise once, needs time doesnt wash it fact is they are a collective unit of dissapointment that are constantly being excused for and should all be moved on if we are to move on.
    We have a bloated squad of nobodies, a hand full of good players 1 match winner (and hes the goalie) thats the damning facts dress it up all you want but all of what ive said is bang on.
    Whos fault is it? Levy with no investment and flawed inept transfer in/activity and AVB & Baldinis awful waste of the Bale money with no clear stratergy.
    This wont be miraculously repaired by Poch the team needed a proper clear out in the summer and some much needed cash injection into the first team to get some proper players in.
    Then we might of got a team that gives a sh;t again, that could actually play football, and would finally do something.
    Remember the CL campaign fondly, and the league cup win because until these problems are rectified we arent seeing anything of the sorts again for a long time which is criminal, the mismanagement of it all has been and is appalling.
     
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  9. Spurporter Well-Known Member

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    Felon82, you're revolutionary. Spurs do not need to rid of your list (which is incomplete, I believe, since you didn't include Dembele). All THFC need are left MF and CF to play in EPL. Those on your list may be gutless, but good enough for Europa group stages. When it comes to playoff part it will be past Jan and Levy/ Baldini will must have delivered either Rodriguez or Bony or both. Lennon, Townsend, Dembele and Naughton will exit. With them will go your frustration.
     
    Last edited: September 23, 2014
  10. big fran Guest

    Personally I would pick the exact same 11 and say go out and put right the mess u created from sat. In
    saying that the squad has pperformed poor all season barring v a **** QPR team. But we are stuck with the dross you state above felon until Jan at least so what will be will
    be and get used to it...
     
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  11. Felon82 Well-Known Member

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    Im used to it Fran- were all used to it, doesnt mean it should be excused, ignored or papered over.

    The players, the board, the whole club needs a proper shake up to stop us sleep walking backwards into total mediocrity and a perrenial laughing stock.

    How many times should we watch the same mistakes repeated over and over before somethings done about it?
     
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  12. burnt Guest

    Anybody see us pulling a result like that off at afield tonight regardless of team selections .. 5 out of top 7 in prem lge cant defend for **** .. Some of it this season is really shocking .. Best league in the world tho , don't forget that .. lol .. So in theory if we consistently top 6 , in the best league in the world , we are actually quiet good .. Perspective lads .. lol .. You gotta laugh ..
     
  13. Ramos43

    Ramos43 Active Member

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    I feel that there are MANY factors that contribute to the fragility of the teams mentality ,and you guy's have already mentioned a big one - leadership.

    I think what Spurs lack in that regard is a CORE of experienced, strong willed and passionate winners within the team to help manage the dressing room.Preferably, people that know and understand what it takes to win titles/honours within the game, but essentially people that HATE losing football matches and are well versed with matters of the human/sportmans mind.

    When I look at most of the successful teams in recent memory there often seems to be a group of around 3-5 players that help translate the managers message to the rest of the team, whether it's in dressing room or out on the pitch. Players that have a connection with the club beyond that of employer - employee, and genuinely wish to help make their time at said club successful.

    Now, granted the teams that I am thinking of here are CL regulars who can pay the sort of wages that Spurs simply cannot match, but above all, it is that group of highly motivated professionals, who are willing to come together and take responsibility for team affairs, that Spurs are short of at the moment.

    With that said, I have noticed that in recent years the club has made an effort to sign players who HAVE captained their respective club sides/ countries which SHOULD at least in theory give Pochettino something to work with in terms of formulating that core once he has a better understanding of what the core of his team is going to look like.

    Lloris, Vertonghen, Chiriches, Kaboul, Adebayor, Stambouli and Fazio have all had experience of captaining previous teams, and yet out of those names, only a few would you desperately want to take into battle with you. That HAS to change, and the onus is on the players to do that!

    These are ALL players that have been key parts of successful teams in the past, and therefore you would hope they would have strength of character through those experiences to be able to offer some sort of guidance, motivation, encouragement, advice and inspiration to the rest of the team about what it takes to be successful, but how seriously they are taking those opportunities is, I suppose, VERY open to debate, at present.

    Tim said when he was in charge that 'everybody wants to be everybody's friend' which is fine on the training pitch, but the players must realise that once they cross the white line for competitive action, they must forget about wanting to be friends with there team mates and become an example for them to follow instead.

    I know I did in my playing/managing days and sometimes that made me unpopular, but guess what everybody respected me when it was all said and done because at the end of the day, more often than not, we won.

    I see too many nice guys in the Spurs changing room at the moment, which is why I am so excited to see the impact that both Stambo and Fazio have on the changing room,once they get their feet under the table.

    Listen, it takes a special kind of character to walk into a changing where they may not be the best/most renowned player and start dishing out rollickings, so I can understand players who have recently joined the club, especially from lesser leagues, being a bit hesitant to make their voice heard. But that my, friends is what separates the cream from the crops!

    William Gallas was an excellent free transfer by the club, as was Edgar Davids, because the had played for bigger clubs, on bigger stages, before arriving at WHL and so automatically had the dressing rooms attention when they arrived at the club.

    Many of you were against the reported signing of Esteban Cambiasso but I feel he would have had a similar galvanising/inspirational effect on a fairly young squad.

    Players NEED to play with a bit of fear for me. But that fear should be generated from inside the club from one of the following sources:

    • The managers wrath/disappointment.
    • The prospect of being dropped/ left out of the squad.
    • Returning to the dressing room to face during/after a match to face a demanding set of colleagues in the knowledge that you haven't given everything to the cause.
    Although there MUST be a balance between fear and encouragement/incentive/motivation. After all how do you keep multimillionaires, engaged in your philosophy/ideas/objectives without it?

    But I'm going to move away from that term 'leadership', and suggest that a collective belief within the squad is what the squad is REALLY missing at them moment, and in all honesty has been missing ever since Gareth Bale walked out of the door....

    To be continued... (don't you just love a good cliff-hanger);)
     
    Last edited: September 24, 2014
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  14. Mattj78

    Mattj78 Well-Known Member

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    Ramos, you tease......lol....hanging on the cliff....it's like the Italian job
    ....it's gonna blow....
     
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  15. Ramos43

    Ramos43 Active Member

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    Sorry Matthew, my friend, but it had to be done. I'm running on empty here and if I can't give you guys the very best of Ramos, I'd rather not give you anything at all! ...I owe that much to myself Just read my last post back and it was in a ABSOLUTE mess (so of course I've had to correct the errors).

    Nothing that a good feed, and kip, won't sort...

    As far as the rest of my post is concerned, I'll try and make it worth the wait, eh!;)
     
    Last edited: September 24, 2014
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  16. notnats

    notnats Well-Known Member

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    Ramos, you tease...... it's gonna blow ? am I missing something here?
     
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  17. notnats

    notnats Well-Known Member

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    Getting back to football, it does indeed look like the same old Spurs that we had under AVB, look, I like Poch and I think he has the potential to be one of the top managers but thus far he has not done anything at all different and as they say, the definition of madness is doing things exactly the same and expecting different results. Poch needs time, we all know that and hopefully the chairman gives it to him but he needs to step up, I want to see some positive and decisive action when needed, and that would be now. Yes the team are much to blame, they look lacking in ideas, and lacking in interest, and most of all lacking in leadership and direction, but all that being said the buck will always stops at the manager. Poch was brought into the club as a highly motivational and progressive young manager and so far apart from a promising pre-season not much seems to have changed and we are slumping into the same old habits, and yes we can rightly blame the players but they are not going to change unless someone makes them change and that someone is Poch.
     
  18. notnats

    notnats Well-Known Member

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    Playing and managing days Ramos, please do tell us more, I think we all would like to know from where your footballing genius does arise from, or will you continue to just allude to this greatness and then hide behind the safety of anonymity ?....;)
     
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  19. Mattj78

    Mattj78 Well-Known Member

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    Just realised how very wrong that sounded. Back to football...
     
  20. Ramos43

    Ramos43 Active Member

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    LOL.... Nonats DO me a favour, mate:

    1. Get your mind out of the swamp!

    2. Change the bloody record, eh!.I'm sure the last time I checked this was a Tottenham Hotspur FC based Forum, NOT a Ramos43 Tribute site (which you will be pleased to know will be up and running shortly)....
    Listen, someone has got draw the line, here....Otherwise, you'll be asking me to post pictures of myself in some training gear, with a whistle in my mouth, next!... LOL. :rolleyes:
     
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