Saints improve, Spurs tread water..?

With the NLD now out of the way and having come away with a hard earned point, we now move on to Europe again, before that dreaded post Europe Sunday game, and the media are already seeing Sunday's game as one which may say a lot about Pochettino's decision to move to White Hart lane.
This article is in reference to an article in today's Daily Mirror by Dave Kidd, who suggests that Pochettino has made a " sideways ' move.

Schneiderlin

The first question raised by Kidd is regarding Spurs' protracted attempts to sign Saints midfielder Morgan Schneiderlin over the summer. Schneiderlin was incandescent with Saints owners that they did not allow him to move, but Kidd questions why he got so upset about missing the opportunity to move from a club who had just finished 8th, to one who finished so much higher.....in 6th.
Schneiderlin remains at Southampton and few could argue that Koeman has done a great job in integrating him back into the team, and he has delivered positive performances thus far.

Ambition

Kidd further goes on to question the reason Pochettino chose Spurs as his next step, '

It was generally accepted Spurs had ‘ambition’, while Saints had none.
Yet Southampton visit White Hart Lane on Sunday second in the table and five points clear of their hosts after six straight wins in league and cup.

It is far too early in the season to realistically make too many comparisons about league positions, but Kidd certainly has a good case for how Sourhampton have gone about their summer transfer business. As I watched from outside, I saw Southampton selling players and felt sympathy with the fans, as selling your best players, no matter the price, is always frustrating. I, along with most others saw Southampton as a club in trouble and maybe in danger of a relegation battle, so just why did their transfer business turn out to be so good. Dave Kidd compares Spurs' and Saints transfer dealings; pointedly questioning the two clubs academy systems'

It shouldn’t have been the club’s recruitment system ( that prompted Pochettino to move )– just compare the way Southampton dealt with the loss of five key players to Spurs blowing their Gareth Bale money a year earlier.

As much as it may hurt to agree with Kidd, he makes a good point. At the weekend it was great to see Mason given his chance, but the way we dealt with the sale of Bale was to go out and throw money around with little thought to what we were actually buying. Southampton have a history of producing good players, and with the academy and first team being so closely linked, maybe Spurs need to think more about how they do business in the future.
Of course, Spurs are seen, certainly by us Spurs fans, as being a bigger, more ambitious club than Southampton, but Kidd again gives food for thought on that considering possible reasons why Pochettino moved;

During Harry Redknapp’s reign, it was often mentioned how Spurs would have provided the majority of a combined fantasy North London XI – not that Spurs ever finished above their bitter rivals. A cursory glance at their current squad shows the club have gone significantly backwards since.

So why did Pochettino view Spurs as a step up from Southampton? It certainly wasn’t job security, as Spurs chairman Daniel Levy had sacked three managers in two years. It certainly wasn’t infrastructure, as Tottenham face the painful process of moving to a new stadium, which Saints went through a generation earlier.

And it couldn’t have been the academy – where are the recent Spurs graduates to compare with Southampton’s Bale, Oxlade-Chamberlain, Theo Walcott, Shaw, Lallana and Chambers?

We were of course lucky enough to see Bale develop into a World class talent, but I do question the re investment. Where the Saints look to have been sensible, Spurs have been impatient. However, what must be remembered is that Spurs fans are more demanding, with all due respect to the Saints, and demand success, although little success has been seen in the past 14 years. If Spurs had just brought in players from the academy, I have no doubt that there would have been some choice comments on this very forum.

Master tactician

Pochettino has been described as a master tactician, but Kidd goes on to question this in regard to Saturday's game at the Emirates. Pochettino set up his team to defend and try and Nick a goal on the break, which ultimately they did, but when did Spurs suddenly develop what Pellegrini would call, ' a small club attitude?'
Kidd then questions the ambition of Spurs, on and off the field;

Spurs were excellent at Arsenal on Saturday. Excellent for a club with limited ambitions, on and off the field.

Now, that comment sounds harsh, but I would be interested to hear your thoughts on that comment. I am not saying that Kidd is right, or wrong, but he does raise points that are not without merit.
Southampton have a stronger infrastructure than us, and it is galling to think they sorted a new stadium over a decade ago, and on a smaller budget that the team they play this weekend.

The reason that Koeman is able to do so well with youngsters is because that is how the Dutch league operates. It may not be up there with the Premier league, but it is like an academy league in many ways where the youngsters are taught to pass the ball neatly, move into positions and press high up the pitch, something that Pochettino is an advocate of, although we are still yet to see that in full effect at the lane.

If you want to read Dave Kidd's full article, it is available free on Mirror.co.uk/sport.

Sunday may well indicate more about where Spurs are than our last game against Arsenal.

 

Excellent analysis, both the original article and your take on it. Southampton have much to envy, so the only reasons I can think of for Pochettino's move are either that he thought that Liebherr was about to asset-strip the Saints; or (more likely) that he was attracted by the historical (but also partially self-fulfilling) notion that Spurs are a "bigger" club, and thus more likely to have success. It could also be, of course, that the pastoral delights of Hampshire weren't his cup of tea and he's more of a bright lights, big city kind of a bloke.

 

Good articles - as a Saints fan not enough credit is given to Rupert Lowe who, though he oversaw the demise of the club to the brink of destruction, did plant the seeds for revival some ten years ago. This long term approach is the only way Spurs will get into the top four - unfortunately no-one from the supporters, press to the management would be prepared in the days of instant success to plant these seeds anymore. Looking forward to the match on Sunday.

 

The season has just begun and it is too early to be speculating about whether Pochettino made the right move. But i think that Spurs are obviously the bigger club and have been constantly qualifying for Europe for the past 20 years the saints on the other hand will always be a feeder club to the other premier league clubs. Agreed they have had a meteoric rise in past 4 years which their academy and its players warrent but they will never be able to afford to buy players to provide squad depth to maintain this level of consistency throughout the season...lets see how they fair against the bigger teams....Poch has been at spurs for only 3 months and has already made a difference as we saw against arsenal...

 

Saints fan here.

It's great to see an objective view of this sort of article amongst a whole pile of rubbish that is undoubtedly going to be written this week with Saints coming up against their old manager. A lot of Saints fans and going to spout a load of vitriol this week as they did last week in the run up to facing Harry Redknapp.

The truth is, we don't know why Pochettino left. It could have been Cortese leaving, more money, bigger club or any combination.

Spurs are a bigger club than Saints imho. They consistently push for the European places and have a bigger stadium, have more silverware and so on.

As for the comment about 'limited ambition' I can't see where that is coming from. Any club willing to back their managers with the amount of money that Levy has provided surely can't be accused of lacking ambition. That is also why so many managers have been given the axe so quickly when results have been deemed below the acceptable standard.

Anyway, although I hope we win on Sunday, best of luck for the rest of the season and I hope it's a great game.

Wilfster

 

Its great to see so many people trying to speculate on why or what caused Potts to jump ship, but really who cares why, he has and he's now the spurs manager.

Without doubt spurs up until now have always been the bigger club and may continue to be so, however every great achievement or attainment started with ambition, the so called bigger clubs didn't start at the top they worked their way to the top. Saying saints will never be a top four club and always a feeder club is rather a foolish and emotive statement to make, how does anyone know saints will never be a top four club?

Who could have seen Man Utd struggling so badly this year? and whilst they have been a top club for so many years, that wasn't always the case, they earned their right to be there over many years of proven consistent success.

People should let 90 minutes every week be the only judge of who's good enough to be at the top over a full season, the table will not lie!

Whilst as a happy saints fan I write this, I am not foolish enough to believe we have cracked the top four, we are just currently loving where we are right now. Really looking forward to Sunday and for us it is a bit of a grudge match, that's just football, we really hope to put one over on little Potts. However whoever wins on Sunday, I think the managers will secretly be more determined to win this one than another person in that stadium come Sunday, I will be there and cant wait for this one!!

 

Only visiting to say it's a pleasant change to read a balanced article. Don't agree with all the comments but at least they're not full of 'playground insults' and offensive stuff as churned out on most sites by the percentage of brainless idiots who say they support a football club.(Every club seems to have a few.)
I admit I was in panic mode in the summer. I can't believe where we are now, and the attitude is now 'bring em on' whoever they are.
'Cos of the recent friction I've got to sign off with my alias' .......
Spurminator.

 

It's a good article. We'll see if mp took a sideways move by the end of the season, not after 6 games tho.

 

I am absolutely amazed at how many comments think the Mirror article was a good article, balanced and thoughtful. It wasn't. It was absolute rubbish.

Firstly (and I will answer point by point, as raised in the article), Spurs finishing sixth was the lowest they have finished in five seasons, it occurred in a season when they sold their best player and bought in seven overseas players, six of whom were under the age of 25 at point of signing. So, please, forget the media BS, these players need time to settle. They came into a team where AVB seemed to have an aversion to attacking play, and showed zero flexibility, and left in a team where Tim Sherwood displayed an aversion to tactics. At the same time Southamtpon finished in the highest spot they have ever attained in the EPL. Also, viewing the trasition even from 8th to 6th as 'sideways' would be like Spurs finishing 4th (twice in last five seasons) which is only two points off second, so a Spurs player joining Chelsea or Citeh would be 'sideways'. It wouldn't be, and neither would a Southampton player joining Spurs. It is a stupid analogy from someone who has decided first and then made the facts appear to fit his argument. Here's a fact, of the teams in the top tier (in which, notionally, Everton and Spurs are the weakest/poorest) Spurs have finished above all but Arsenal as least once in recent seasons. How many times have Southampton finished above Citeh, Chelsea, Arsenal, Liverpool, United, Spurs or Everton in the last (let's be fair) decade? Sideways step...get outta here!

Secondly, Southampton having a good start to the season is not the same as them having more ambition as Spurs. I guarantee, and any who has followed football for any number of years will know this without even checking, that if I wanted to, I could find any number of bottom half and mid-table teams who have had great starts to a season, just the same as teams that have finished in the top four, and even won the EPL, have often had dreadful starts to seasons. This whole argument seems to hinge upon the fact that Southampton have had a good start whereas Spurs' Bale-money signings didn't all instantly settle. Oh, and Southampton having a good academy.

Well, let's deal with that, because I have been paying close attention to the Southampton academy ever since they appointed a slew of young Dutch coahes a decade or so ago. It was a brilliant move and it has paid off handsomely. Amazingly enough, Spurs were the first BIG club (and I am using the term advisedly) to make the same change in focus - when Daniel Levy took a moratorium after dismissing Glenn Hoddle before appointing Frank Arnesen. What both clubs were working towards was a more Continental approach with greater emphasis on technique and less on physique, more on learning and less on winning at a young age. There is an obvious time lag with this type of approach. Southampton didn't immediately gain promotion after appointing the young Dutch coaches, did they? So, we are only, now, seeing the first fruits, proper, from the academy. But let's not kid ourselves, here, the youth system, which is what we are talking about is not 'just' the academy. And the idea isn't just to produce a few first class individuals, it is to also produce squad players and players to sell.

So, aside from the obvious players who were bought young and therefore came through the youth set-up (and I'll even be generous and leave Bale out even though he was 17 YO when purchased) like Kyle Walker who was 17 YO (too): Caulker, sold for £8 million, Livermore, sold for £6 million, 1st team squad, Rose, Naughton, Lennon (I think, too), Townsend, Mason, Bentaleb, Harry Kane, Archer (on loan), Tommy Carroll (on loan), a load of other players sold, for which Spurs get the occasional sell-on bonus. The likes of Alex Pritchard on loan, who is extremely well thought of. The under 21's in the NextGen series took, among others, Barcelona apart in Barcelona (a defeat that allegedly had Barca looking at Pritchard and Coulthirst, currently on loan) - before Spurs disqualified themselves from the competition by playing an ineligible player. According to observers the under 18's are even better than the under 21's. Anyone interest should be checking how they have been doing in their respective leagues. Liam Brady, on quitting his job at the Emirates, stated publicly, that Spurs now had the best youth personnel in the country. Arsenal and Chelsea scouts have been complaining that whenever they got word of an exciting young talent, anywhere in greater London, they were turning up to check him out only to find Spurs signing him. Daniel Levy has made a strategic goal of his AMBITION the youth set-up. Did the writer of the mirror article even bother to check this before just noticing that Southampton had some good players from their youth set-up and making his simplistic diagnosis. Was he aware that Spurs spent £43 million on a training centre that is considered the best in England, maybe Europe, and possibly even the World. That's all ambition, too.

And I'm sorry, but the simplistic comparison of Mr Redknapp's Spurs and the current one, and which would get into a combined Arsenal/Spurs team, is just rubbish, too. They do not compare. And the reason that they do not compare is because one is a team that went through teething troubles after being assembled through the proceeds of the sale of some big players (like Berbatov), and then developed, whereas the other is a team that is going through some teething troubles after the sale of some top players (like Modric and Bale) and is yet to develop. Either compare the current crop to the one that Mr Rekdnapp had just inherited after Juande Ramos was sacked (y'know, the one that included a Luka Modric who everyone was in the processing of swearing blind that he was too weak for the EPL, and Gareth Bale who was a Jonah that Spurs fans wanted sold to Nottingham Forest), or, alternatively, wait until this present team has had a couple of seasons to develop and then compare if to the team Mr Redknapp took to the Emirates and won 3 - 2 (I remember, I had a tenner on it at 40 - 1).Do that, rather than this crass effort at being smart. It doesn't compute. It is lazy and agenda driven.

Oh, and I'm sure Pochettino was looking at the way Nigel Adkins was discarded and imagining that he would have great job security at Southampton. Mr Redknapp was given nearly four full seasons at WHL. If he is good enough he will have job security. There is a media agenda, pursued by the friends and admirers of Harry Redknapp, claiming that there was no reason to sack him - there was - and that, therefore, the only logical conclusion is that Daniel Levy is 'trigger happy'. Oh, and look, someone is the media is weaving an article together which includes the claim that Pochettino would have had job security at St Mary's but won't at WHL. LoL.

Oh, and the stadium, sheesh. It will be bigger than St Mary's. Southampton built St Mary's earlier because the Dell was poorly situated and in no way comparable to WHL (which has a very high ratio of executive boxes, providing higher revenue than the attendance limit would suggest). And the hold-ups aren't really Spurs' fault - the Gov took 18 months to make a 3 month decision, and only jumped to it when local council leaders in Tottenham questioned the loyalties of those responsible.

And, finally, my favourite piece of horse cack in the whole article - Spurs are not ambitious because they displayed a 'small team' mentality against Arsenal! Oh, really? Obviously, Chelsea displayed a lack of ambition when they conducted their smash and grab at Anfield, against the then best counter attacking team in the league, last season? Or against Citeh? Pochettino showed his lack of tactical nous by, er, showing tactical nous. SHUT UP!

The whole article, and the whole argument, rests on Southampton having a good start to the season, and on them having built a new stadium, one that will be considerably smaller and behind in terms of technology, by the time the NDP is finished. Their academy is no better, they started it a bit earlier (and some folk, including Mr Kidd seem entirely ignorant of the Spurs academy and how it is currently perceived), their training centre is inferior, their squad is (believe me, it really is) inferior, their history is inferior, their current attainments, in terms of league finishing positions, are considerably lower. They are a club I have always liked, and their academy really is excellent (as is Tottenham's - possibly the best two in the EPL ATM), though I'm sure Saints fans, who seem to have developed quite a foaming at the mouth hatred of Spurs, won't thank me for that. But to suggest that a good start to one season and a nice stadium built a while ago means Spurs isn't anything but a sideways step from Southampton is actually idiotic. /of

 

Where as recent seasons we have been chasing the top 4 we are now closer to becoming an 8th place team than CL qualification, weve been treading water for too long and inevitably stagnation leads to going backwards.
We are run pathetically in a football team end product sense, never signing higher level players, ignoring glaring deficiencies in the team, english to foreign manager merry go round, selling our few next level players, transfers based mostly around potential and sell on value, an academy with no natural progression towards the first team and its style/ethos of play.
All major issues that are never addressed but in massive need of sorting out, yet forever excused.

 

How are we closer to becoming an 8th placed team? Because we finished sixth last season while bedding seven new overseas players in, six of whom were under 25 YO at point of signing, while being in managerial turmoil? I wish I had £1 for the number of times five, four, three, two and one season ago that I heard Spurs fans say we would be lucky to finish 8th!

How have we been treading water? We have been improving the youth set-up and the quality of the squad. As said above, you either compare the current situation with the one Redknapp inherited when he replaced Juande Ramos, or you wait until this one has had a couple of years to develop and then compare it to the one that played in CL. You can't compare the current situation to the team that played in the CL!

How is stagnation inevitable? We have one of the most highly rated youth set-ups in the country, and, increasingly, in Europe. Pay attention to what is going on at youth set-up rather than making unsubstantiated statements! We have an excellent young squad - how is it inevitable that they won't gel? It isn't.

How are we run pathetically in a football end product sense? We are the sixth best financed team in the EPL. Therefore finishing sixth is par, and finishing above sixth is above par. In the last five seasons we have finished 4th, 5th, 4th, 5th, 6th. Or, in other words, in one disjointed and transitional season we finished par, and in the preceding four seasons we finished above par. How is that possible is we are run pathetically in an end product sense?

How is it pathetic that we don't sign any higher level players? Who do you even mean by that? We can't sign players above a certain level AND age quite simply because even if we did manage to get the transfer fee together we couldn't persuade them to come and we couldn't afford the wages even if we did. That is just reality. Our only chance of getting players at that level is if we produce them themselves - which is probably why Levy has spent so much time, effort and money on the youth set-up which he has made a central plank of his strategic vision. That is why we sign players like Eriksen and Lamela.

How do we ignore glaring deficiencies in the team? Reliable ITK said that Pochettino wanted to spend this summer strengthening the defence. That is exactly what he did. He signed a second goalkeeper at a level few teams can even dream of. We signed a highly rated young right-back. We signed a highly rated young left-back. We signed a highly rated young centre-half - who can also play right-back. We signed Sevilla's Europa league winning captain centre-half. We targeted defence - it was strengthened. No doubt you will say we should have bought this or that - most likely a striker. Well, yeah, that would have been nice - but you shouldn't be discounting Harry Kane. And we could argue about Adebayor and Soldado (who was considered to be an elite level, or close to, striker, and was at his peak - not so easy, is it?), but rather than do that, I will just say again strengthening defence was clearly our priority this summer, I believe Pochettino believed that, and it was done.

The managerial merry-go-round is annoying - Daniel Levy does not seem to be very good at choosing managers. But lets not forget, Mr Redknapp did get nearly four years in charge. I, personally, remember United having something of a managerial merry-go-round before they appointed Ferguson. I have heard it said that Levy really has left no stone unturned in trying to ascertain if Pochettino is the right man for the job. Let's just hope it works.

We sell our next level layers because they want to go, we can't offer them the chances of immediate success that teams like Real Madrid can, and we can't get anywhere near matching the wages they can offer. That is just the reality of the situation. They want to leave.

Transfers have to be mostly based on potential. Ironically, Bale and Modric were both signed based on potential. I, for one, would rather we went for potential than that we go for players just over the far side of their career, and looking for one last pay-day, who are leaving what are genuinely the top level clubs ATM (much as I hate seeing that). It was throwing good money after good. That is what Levy set-out to eradicate when he took a moratorium after the dismissal of Glenn Hoddle before signing Frank Arnesen as the driving force in our switch to having a productive youth set-up. And what happened there? He was poached by Chelsea - technically a bigger, and certainly wealthier club, who offered him more money and more to work with. It's sad but that is really how things work. The allegation that players are bought for sell-on value is just that...an allegation. No-one can prove one way or the other if it is true - it does prove that plenty of folk, who would not have heard of the concept, have watched a certain movie starring Brad Pitt

Doesn't the academy have any natural progression to the 1st team? As stated above, the current first team squad includes Rose, Naughton, Lennon (I think, too), Townsend, Mason, Bentaleb, Harry Kane, Archer (on loan), Tommy Carroll, all of whom came through the youth set-up and/or the academy.

Is there no attempt to inculcate the ethos and style of play of the first team into the youth set-up? It is a fact that Levy created roles, and job titles, specifically to do just that - were you aware of this? As a point of interest, did you know that Pochettino attended the under 21 match last night? Redknapp notoriously just wanted proven players for the here-and-now - no doubt it was one of the many issues Levy/Lewis had with him. AVB specifically stated that he was in total accord with the club ethos in regard to developing youth players - and then pointedly refused to use youth players. It was, no doubt, one of the major behind the scenes issues between him and Levy - AVB didn't just go because of the Liverpool defeat or because of the football being played.

I can see any major issues that have not been addressed. I am not making excuses. I support THFC not ENIC, and if them being replaced meant the team improving no-one would be happier than me. I am just stating facts and using logic. We are the sixth wealthiest club in the EPL, but we have made big strides in every way imaginable. Not as big as if the strides were being taken by a sugar-daddy owner, to be sure. But then the complaint should be exactly that - the club would improve faster with a sugar-daddy owner. And ENIC specifically are not sugar-daddy owners.

COYS

 

Southamptons academy is producing CL level players we are producing league 1 and 2, your aforementioned academy players that currently prop up our 1st team wouldnt get in any of the top 4 teams thats a fact.
By next level players i mean 1s that transform the team, deliver from the off, consistantly and help kick us on to where we want to be.
We have gone successively 4th 5th 6th so id say thats stagnation, 1 point off top 4 to 10 points is invevitable going backwards as stated.
S-P you say your not making excuses but your post reads rather different.

 

How are our academy players league 1 and 2 players? We sold Caulker to Swansea for £8 million, we sold Livermore to Hull for £6 million. Two solidly mid-table EPL teams. As explained above, it is a total misunderstanding of the purpose of the academy/youth set-up to believe it is just to produce 1st team players. It isn't. It is to produce 1st team players, squad players and players to sell. We currently have Walker, Rose, Naughton, Lennon (I think, too), Townsend, Mason, Bentaleb, Harry Kane, Archer (on loan), Tommy Carroll (on loan) in the 1st team squad. I don't think it is possible to write all of them off as being poor - even if you want to do it with a couple. There is no way of knowing just how good players like Mason, Bentaleb or Kane can be ATM. Walker was linked to big money Continental moves. Again, as said above, Southampton started the process before us and, being an non-EPL team (until recently) and ten a lower level EPL team there is less pressure on them incorporating youth system players in their squad. Also, as said above, the crop under the ones listed is considered more highly than these ones are, and the under 18s are rated more highly still.

I know what you meant by next level players. My answer stands. You can't force players to join, especially not for lower wages than they would get and with less chance of winning things.

And as I stated, we have been through a process of selling our two best players and ploughing the money back into the squad with young players. This has coincided with managerial upheaval. It is exactly the same process as we went through when we sold Berbatov and Keane and then sacked Ramos and hired Rekdnapp. The difference being is that the squad we had left after Modric and Bale left is far better (IMHO, of course) than the one we had left after we sold Keane and Berbatov, and we got far more money to reinvest from selling Bale and Modric...oh, yeah, and the youth set-up is even more developed and producing more. On those grounds I don't think it is inevitable at all that we will continue going backwards. Answer me truthfully, when we sold Berbatov and Keane and bought Bale and Modric (among others), and then sacked Ramos, did we go backward? If not what was different then from now? Remember, a large body of opinion, including among Spurs fans, believed that Modric was too slight for the EPL (and, they said, his first season had shown that) and that Bale was a Jonah who should be sold to Forest.

How am I making excuses? And why would I make excuses? I am nothing to do with ENIC. Nothing to do with Joe Lewis or Daniel Levy. I don;t know any current employees of THFC. All the facts I have provided are verifiable - we are currently the sixth best financed club in the EPL. We are in a similar situation to when Rekdnapp took over - except I believe the squad is better, the head coach is better and the youth set-up is further along. We do have one of the best training centres in Europe if not the World. Liam Brady did say we had the best youth personnel in the England. The groundwork for the stadium has been done and we are just waiting for the kebab-cooker factory. My post reads that I am being realistic - yours reads like you believe realism is expecting us to outspend Citeh and Chelsea. That isn't realistic and ENIC aren't trying to do that. I deal with what is real.

 

Not too bothered or interested in the musings of Dave Kidd tbh, with the Soton game coming up there's always going to be some interest of this type, Poch took the job because it was a step up in football management and a fantastic opportunity for the young manager, we are not one of the top or elite clubs but we are certainly a step up from Southampton, no disrespect intended to Soton fans. There's no doubt of course that the saints have made a fantastic start to the season considering the players that they've lost, as much as many do consider them to be a selling club, and yes they have developed some incredible talent not just in recent years but for many years, but losing that much talent and depth to the team must have been devastating to the fans who would have felt that they were on the verge of something. I for one felt for them to a degree, we sit here and bicker and moan still about players that we've had to sell over the years, its never a good feeling, on top of all that the manager also ups and leaves as well, we don't ever have to suffer that sort of ignominy, we usually just sack ours. Anyway well played to the Saints so far this season, they've shown incredible resilience as a club and been impressive on the pitch as well, this is a massive game and could well be a very entertaining one and one that Poch will not want to lose. looking forward to this one.

 

S-P you will forgive for wanting more from the team i support wont you?
We have been knocking around the top 4 and are now further away than when Jol was in charge is this progress on the pitch (especially with the money recouped from selling our proper players)?
We have 1 league cup to our name in the last 12 years is this progress on the pitch?
There is a hell of a lot of 'its all in place' and 'what an amazing squad and set up we have' well when are we actually going to see the Team deliver?
Dress it up all you like but Sport is about Winning and delivering else your just happy taking part.

 

'S-P's lengthly contributions are typical of the 'ILWT' brigade, however much he denies having a pro-ENIC/Levy agenda. Everything in the garden is rosy, apparently, except on the pitch, and that seems not to matter because our training facilities, youth team, playing surface and probably our toilet paper are the envy of the PL - who needs a winning team with all that to be smug about? Levy's not trigger-happy and Redknapp's four years in post proves it? Couldn't two fourths, one fifth, CL qualification and a league cup final have had something to do with it? Only a total ***** believes that we are stronger today than four years ago, so isn't that regression? Yes, we'll no doubt win more than we lose under Poch, and we've still got enough good players to spring the occasional surprise result, but we won't be anywhere near the CL for years to come, certainly not with ENIC's bean-counter in chief at the helm.

 

Of course I will forgive you wanting more. I want more. I just don't don't see that underrating the current squad, comparing a new squad and new head coach with the fully developed squad Redknapp, who had been in the job a few years, or berating ENIC for not being sugar-daddy owners, helps anyone. If I see a reasonable way to improve the club I will support it as much as anyone. If I see something that I think it is fair to criticize Levy?ENIC over I will criticize. I state plainly that they have made mistakes...and I don't like them making mistakes. I just do not see that saying we will be lucky to finish 8th every season or that we haven't progressed helps. We didn't finish 8th in any of the last seasons, and we have clearly progressed.

Sport being 'all about winning' is a very American attitude (if I may say so) that my generation didn't grow up with. Of course we all want to win - but if your only standard is that beating Citeh and Chelsea, which requires having as much money as Citeh and Chelsea, and anything else is immense failure that requires never ending giref, ranting and blame, then you are going to struggle to find any contentment. Do you want us to be taken over by someone like Abrahmovich or do you want us to get massively in debt and, maybe, go the same way as Leeds if all our borrowing doesn't bring the success we have borrowed to cover?

 

And your contribution is typical of the bi-polars who just do not seem to have the faculties to understand a balanced argument. If anything disagrees with your prognosis it has to be dismissed as being pro or anti, right?

I have never said everything in the garden is rosy. Just far more than folk who think we will be lucky to finish 8th and accept that the youth set-up is **** without knowing anything about what is going on at youth level, would admit!

No-one is being smug. Just weighing things up fairly. I'm trained to do that...clearly you are trained to rant incoherently.

Clearly the sophistication of my arguments have confused you. I never said Levy was, wasn't or, indeed, might be trigger happy, and this is proven by Redknapp having four years at the helm . I said that the media have an agenda to portray Levy in a certain way and that is based around not accepting that there were genuine reasons for dismissing Rednkapp - and reasons that were of his own making. I also said that Levy doesn't sack managers too quickly - he hires the wrong managers in the first place. How is that portraying everything in the garden as rosy or painting Levy/ENIC as being perfect and beyond reproach?

Again, I am sorry if your cognitive abilities fail to understand the point I have very clearly made more than once: I never said we are stronger now than four years ago. I said that it is not profitable in any way whatsoever to compare where we are right now with where we were four years ago. To make a fair comparison you either have to compare the squad we have now with the one we had when Redknapp first took over. You know, the squad that included a Luka Modric who plenty of folk (and most emphatically NOT ME) were writing off as being too slight for the EPL, and claiming Gareth Bale was a Jonah who should be sold to Nottingham Forest. You know, the squad that had just got 2 points from 8 games. The squad who folk like you would have sworn blind had regressed from the one we had four years before. Yes, that's right, that squad - the one that went on to a CL quarter final! Either that, or give this squad a couple of years to develop and then compare it to the one Redknapp had had a couple of years to work with. Only a TOTAL **** doesn't understand this!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What is funny is that you are absolutely declaring with your infallible and amazing foresight that we won't get near CL for years to come, and I can remember people just like you saying just exactly the same thing at the start of the season where we finished...FOURTH Yeah, that's right, I can remember that. I can remember saying that we would finish in the top four and getting a dogs load of abuse because I was a TOTAL **** and only a TOTAL **** couldn't see that we didn't have a hope of finishing in the top four. And what makes it even funnier is that I told these goode folke that I had money on us finishing in the top four and they called me an even bigger TOTAL **** who was going to lose his money because he was a stupid TOTAL ****. And y'know what - I collected my money from the bookies at the end of the season and they still swear blind that I am a TOTAL stupid **** because I dared to argue against them declaring that all the World of THFC was shite and we didn't have a hope in hell of finishing in the top 10. And just to be clear, I am not saying that we will finish in the top four this season - though we certainly have a chance. Just saying that we are nowhere near as bad as some are making out - making this argument, apparently, makes me a TOTAL **** LoL

Serious questions:

Who do you think we could get at the helm who wouldn't be a bean-counter and would improve us more and more quickly than ENIC have? (please try to avoid the terms sugar-daddy or Vincent Tan, thank you).

Do you believe that the club would be in better shape if Levy/ENIC had been happy to push us further and further into debt - while still never having enough to compete with the likes of chelsea and, then, Citeh?

 

S-P if you think Winning is overated in sport then Levy & Enic are perfect for you, and i can now understand your total support of them.

 

Please don't comment on bi polar as that is insulting and not necessary. Stick to the football topic, thanks all the same. If you would like me to explain to you about bi polar I will but it doesn't have anything to do with the ability to have a balanced debate.