Saints improve, Spurs tread water..?

Discussion in 'Tottenham forum' started by Mattj78, September 30, 2014.

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  1. S-P Guest

    1: LoL I never said winning was overrated - LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL I said the only way we are going to get the level you seem to think we should just automatically be at is if we can outspend Sheikh Mansour and Roman Abrahmovich. I judge ENIC on who and what they are not on them not being oil-mafioso owners. LoL (yes, I'm laughing at you). But thanks for confirming that you wouldn't be happy with anything other than someone who can outspend those two and that you are impervious to reasoned, rational debate.

    I'm outta here. Have the last word if you want...I'm sure it is important to you (and won't actually address anything I've said).
     
  2. S-P Guest

    No offence intended.

    No, I don't need you to explain about it to me, thanks. I wasn't comparing it to an ability to have a balanced debate. I was specifically referencing the inability of some to some have to understand anything other than absolute gloom and despair (yes, in relation to a football team) on the one hand, and absolute euphoria and ecstatic jubilation with the status quo, on the other. It does seem to compare with bi-polar and I used the term for that reason, and because it seems to be in common parlance. In this instance, unless you accept the very most miserable prognosis and enter into total despair you are a Levy/ENIC fan-person who justifies everything they do. It doesn't matter how many times you actually do criticise them, or on how many different things you criticise them - you just justify everything about them because you won't accept the most miserable, negative interpretation. If you don't belief me, read through the posts and tell me how many times I have said I would be happy with new owners and specifically criticised Levy for having a poor record in choosing managers. And they are not the only things I criticise him/them about - indeed, I have made critical observations that were unique (i.e. no-one told me what to think). And that is why it seems to mirror bi-polar.

    But, as said, I hadn't intended to offend, and shall henceforth attempt to find a new way to describe this reduction of everything into two extreme camps. Ta :)
     
  3. Admin

    Admin Administrator Staff Member

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    S-P, please consider registering at the site. I'm sure your opinion will be interesting to lots of visitors.
     
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  4. Mattj78

    Mattj78 Well-Known Member

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    S.p. , admin is right, register yourself as you make valid points and we certainly don't always agree on here, but we all really do want Spurs to succeed.
    I have always been of the opinion that, under levy and ENIC, Spurs have improved to a certain point, but have also struggled to get beyond that point.
    Of course these things take time, but after 14 years we seem to have come to a bit of a halt at present.
    The new manager needs time but levy has failed to give that so hopefully he can see we need some stability.
    Tottenham should be a top four team, not top six.
     
  5. Felon82 Well-Known Member

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    S-P At what point in any of this have i mentioned anything about 'out spending Citeh and Chelsea'?
    I'll answer that for you - nowhere!
    But i will refer to an actual qoute you made 'winning is an American atitude' that 'your generation didnt grow up with'- says alot really if your used to and ok with so-so then like i said Levy and Enic are the perfect owners for you.
    How does that sit with your reasoned, rational debate?
     
  6. S-P Guest

    Thanks.

    Will you keep me safe from mentalists like Felon...he may stalk me :-O
     
  7. S-P Guest

    I largely agree.

    The problem is I can't see what options we have. If we go down the route of being immaculately managed financially, building through the youth set-up and upgrading the infrastructure, as we have done, how can we improve upon that short of having a profligate oil-mafioso owner.

    FFP regulations should have offered some hope - but it tells us all we need to know about them that Abrahmovich was instrumental in having them accepted. He was just concerned at preventing anyone else doing what he had done and especially curtailing Shekh Mansour.

    Under these circumstances, I do sometimes think every single club should just declare an intention to find as rich an owner as possible and to hell with sensible building. The whole ability of clubs to build a challenge by careful management is ridiculously handicapped by the ability of certain clubs to just throw ridiculous money at any player they want - like when Cheslea decided to buy Willian for no other reason than to stop signing him, even when he was in the process of putting pen to paper.

    And that takes us back to the flawed and long drawn out process of ENIC...and putting up with the impatient brigade.
     
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  8. Felon82 Well-Known Member

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    You keep quoting and mentioning me, Stalking, Mentalist ring a bell?
     
  9. big fran Guest

    A) who is dave Kidd and b) who gives a flying fook ... We are were we are. Rebuilding after losing too many world class performers in succession and looking to get into a new stadium without running up debts whilst playing inside of the ffp rules and no sugar daddy! I'd take top six this year and hopefully push on next year!!
     
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  10. Mattj78

    Mattj78 Well-Known Member

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    The word hope is a word synonymous with ENIC. Every year we hope for a new stadium. A fourth place finish. A trophy. Not selling our best player.......
    Success...still hoping and in 14 years from now I wonder if that hope will be a reality..??
     
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  11. S-P Guest

    Oh, man, you are making this so difficult for me. I wasn't going to reply to your inanity but I can't let deliberate misquotes go by. Can't you just make your vital last word calling me a **** or something. I could just leave that quite happily.

    1) You didn't need to mention Citeh and Chelsea. It is inferred in everything you say. You berate ENIC endlessly for financial rectitude...but surely you aren't advocating profligacy??? You don't have the patience to see the youth set-up come to fruition (and don't seem to know very much about the youth set-up anyway), so, presumably, you want top level, high value players at the club NOOOOOOOOOWWWWWWWWWWWWWW!
     
  12. Mattj78

    Mattj78 Well-Known Member

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    You mention patience. Fourteen years. Is that not patience? I dont advocate spending money recklessly but when the chairman spends money from one player on seven? Hello??? Spurs are no closer to Arsenal than they have ever been. No closer to fourth. We send so many players out on loan and only the odd ones make the first team.
    Jon obika is a prime example. He looked a great young lad at palace and levy signed him to prove a point to palace. The lad was a great prospect but was never given a real chance at Spurs. Carroll keeps going out on loan but now he is back, he isn't much of a squad player.
    Spurs could push the academy on but they don't. FACT.
     
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  13. Spurporter Well-Known Member

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    I am with S=P. Kidd's article quotes are laughable. One might compare two teams. There is no comparison, absolutely none, between two FCs.
    Saints are okay for now. Good schedule, no tournament in Europe, no new stadium to finance ( they will never fill large stadium anyway). MP left a good foundation behind.
     
  14. S-P Guest

    Oh, man, you are making this so difficult for me. I wasn't going to reply to your inanity but I can't let deliberate misquotes go by. Can't you just make your vital last word calling me a **** or something. I could just leave that quite happily.

    1) You didn't need to mention Citeh and Chelsea. It is inferred in everything you say. You berate ENIC endlessly for financial rectitude...but surely you aren't advocating profligacy??? You don't have the patience to see the youth set-up come to fruition (and don't seem to know very much about the youth set-up anyway), so, presumably, you want top level, high value players at the club NOOOOOOOOOWWWWWWWWWWWWWW! (Whoops. Pressed post too soon). So, if you want top level players now, but won't wait for young ones to develop and won't get the club into the type of massive debt it would require, the only other option is to have an owner who will spend like Mansour or Abrahmovich. From this I infer, without you saying it, that you want an oil mafioso sugar-daddy owner.

    2) Now you see, this taking a quote out of context and trying to make it say something other than what it does actually say is not something you get away with with folk like me on the t'Internet...because we can just go back and check. What I actually said was "Sport being 'all about winning' is a very American attitude (if I may say so) that my generation didn't grow up with." This was in response your statement that "Dress it up all you like but Sport is about Winning and delivering else your just happy taking part." I have bolded the vital part...y'know, the bit you missed out that says EVERYTHING about the context of my statement...Sport being all about winning is not an attitude I grew up with. This does not, I repeat DOES NOT, say, "winning isn't important at all, I don't want to win, I don't care about winning". What it does say is, well, just what it says. The irony of it is that younger folk don't seem to understand either how unreasonable this attitude makes them seem, but also the massive, massive contradiction that they are being bought up in a school system that is actually marginalising winning while producing a generation of kids who believe that life is ChampMan on cheat mode and there is some kind of disgrace in not winning - even when there are five clubs who are considerably wealthier. It's a joke, really, it is :)

    And what makes it really funny to me is that my first year as a Spurs supporter was also the year we were relegated. I was pre-pubescent (under 10) but I knew enough to understand that when we lined up at the start of the season in the second division (that is what you youngling would call the Championship) I didn't do it on the basis that I would fahook off and support someone else if we didn't gain promotion immediately. Which is exactly what you sound like, TBH. Someone who must support a team, any team, that is top of the tree. back in the day we called them either Glory Hunters or Manchester United fans - whichever was the most current :) Seriously, though, I was ecstatic that we won promotion, I was ecstatic that we signed Ardiles and Villa, I was ecstatic that we had a damned good and quite successful team in the 80's. Does that mean I don't have a winning attitude or mind not winning? No, of course it bloody doesn't. Does that allow me to cloud my judgement? No, no it doesn't do that, either. The funny thing, in regard to your feeble attempt to misquote me to make it sound like I am saying something I didn't say, is this: Whenever I get accused of being an unrealistic optimist for believing we dare raise our heads in the company of United and Liverpool, I am the first one to point out that Liverpool had one period of unprecedented success (albeit epoch making success) but prior to that Everton were the big club in the city and Liverpool were in the 2nd division when Shanks took over; likewise, before our club nearly went bust in the early 90's and before Fergy had won any trophies we had won the same number of top rank trophies as United. And, interestingly enough, only one less than the Goons. So, there you have it: for daring to say we have every bit as much right to aspire as Liverpool, United, the Goons, I am called a delusional optimist; for having the temerity to try to explain the reality of the situation to the likes of you I am labelled as an ENIC fan-boy who is happy to lose. Excuse me while I have a little laugh LoL.

    3) Levy/ENIC, as I have also explained in simple words personally to you, are not my ideal owners. I am a bit of a traditionalist who would be happy with a primitive fans democracy and all clubs having a clearly defined catchment area, but at the same time could force myself to live with a sugar-daddy owner. The ideal would be if a group similar to ENIC (in that they build the club organically, managing the finances well, and not getting us into massive debt), but with much greater finances, and a willingness to invest, may be ideal. For a while it looked like these Cain Hoy characters might offer that - but that ain't gonna happen.

    This is what is confusing you...obviously: I explain the reality of the situation. That doesn't mean I am Dr Pangloss (look up the reference, you might learn something) believing that ENIC are the best of all choices in the best of all possible Worlds. The reality of the situation is that ENIC are an investment company who intend on improving the club by careful management using the resources the club generates. They will make their money from selling on. That means I am not expecting them to invest huge amounts of money - anyone who was, wasn't paying attention and has allowed him/herself to be deceived by their own negligence. On that basis, I don't see the point in spending endless decades bemoaning ENIC for being just what they are. Want owners who are more willing to invest, by all means - I do. But constant rage at teh scorpion for being a scorpion and stinging the fox half way over the river is pointless - it's a scorpion, what do you expect. the best way for us to get better owners, ironically enough, is to allow ENIC to make it a valuable asset that will be attractive to potential buyers. And I am nearly certain ENIC have invested some money, anyway.

    They have they failings. And Levy has made mistakes. But it is truly delusional to not appreciate that we the sixth wealthiest club in the EPL, but that ENIC have taken us from relegation threatened to punching above our weight. We have a good young squad filled with potential. An excellent and exciting youth set-up. One of the best training centres in the World (hey, it cost £43 million - who the hell do you think paid for that). And they have already spent a large amount of money on the stadium. We have a halved the financial gap between ourselves and Liverpool - to name but one. And this is in spite of constant kicks in the cajonas: such as Chelsea poaching Frank Arnesen as soon as it became clear we were on to something; Liverpool getting a cash injection from being allowed into the CL because they were holders, even though there was no precedent for doing so and even when UEFA make decisions like this they usually wait a season or two before it comes into effect; Citeh inheriting an obscene amount of money just when we are about to establish ourselves in the top four; Chelsea somehow winning the most one-sided CL final ever, and losing out on our hard-fought and honestly earned place in the CL...and UEFA doing nothing to financial compensate us for their ill-thought out and hastily enforced decision to aid Liverpool; the Goons constantly pipping us in the most dodgy manner possible. Surely you don't blame Levy/ENIC for all this, too - though, TBH, I did think they should have really pushed for compensation for missing out on the CL, on the basis that we knew the rules but thought they were ill-thought out and hastily pushed through to aid Liverpool, so let them aid us now (feckers!!!).

    I hope this gives you a clearer idea of where I am coming from...and what I think of your attempt at reasoned and rational debate :)
     
  15. Felon82 Well-Known Member

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    S-P

    I thought you werent continuing this?
    And yet once again you are quoting me.
    And also asking me to call you a ****, well your doing that all by yourself mate.
    What i think is great is people like yourself talk up Levy & Enic for not running the club into the ground, but isnt that the bare minimum a Chairman/ board should do? And with DL and Enic that is exactly what they do.
    We are all aware that certain level players are out of our reach but there certainly are players that are of a better standard than what we field that are well obtainable which we should be striving to get to our club to improve us, at prices that will not send us into 'Leeds mkII situation' if managed right- like everton signing Lukaku for example.
    Are we done now or would you like me to talk you through anything else?
     
  16. S-P Guest

    Sorry but you have misinterpreted the context in which I was talking about patience. I wasn't talking about a general kind of patience with ENIC after 14 years. If you believe it is time for a change that is fine with me - just so long as it isn't Vincent Tan, the Venky brothas or Mike Ashley (let alone the Dildo Brothas over at Wet Spam). Things really could get worse. The context within which I mentioned patience was in regard to judging the young squad we have assembled (that I'm actually genuinely excited about BTW) in comparison to the Redknapp team. Either judge the present lot against the team Redknapp inherited from Juande Ramos or be patient and judge this squad in a couple of years against the one that got to CL semi. Least that's what I think I said :)

    Of course we are closer to the goons. We used to be relegation dodgers while they were title contenders - several times in the last decade we have only been denied finishing above them on the last day of the season - and usually in the dodgiest of dodgy circumstances. A couple of years ago I watched them getting at least two dodgy decisions per game - including a linesman single-handedly turning a certain, and deserved, home defeat to Norwich, into the most improbable victory (was that the season we didn't get one single penalty and Bale got booked for the heinous crime of being fouled in the oppos penalty box?). Of course we've got closer to them - don't be melodramatic.

    We had a poor season last season - but disguised in the general feeling that it was a massive let-down (a feeling I shared) we miss the fact that we were only three points off our highest points total. And that was with having one head coach who seemed to be so risk averse I am surprised he didn't glue the ball to Lloris's hands, and another who was, frankly, a gilet bashing loon, while trying to bed in seven overseas players, six of whom were under 25 YO at point of signing. I would expect that shambles to naturally improve this season and so am not so quick to imagine last season is our level.

    When you say Obika, do you mean Bostock? In which case I agree - but it is not down to Levy to pick the team. My personal opinion is that when he was signed and Comolli said it was with a view to quick transition into the 1st team, it was the worse thing they could do. Because what happened was Ramos was sacked, Redknapp came in and, well, we all know his preference for tried and tested players. It could well have sapped his confidence. In any case, there is a lot of agreement, and you won't get any argument from me, that we have been producing some fine players at academy level who haven't been pushed on. As said, above, that was in part down to Redknapp's foibles and was something that caused disagreement with Levy. Likewise, when AVB was appointed he actually gave an interview where he said that he was in absolute accord with the youth policies of the club and then did anything but. As I heard it, he ringed the 1st team and kept them isolated, and it was one of the behind the scenes issues that led to him leaving. Funnily enough, InterTim seemed to be on a bit of a mission with including youth - he was instrumental in developing them and had a point to prove. The blooding of Bentaleb, making it clear that we really did have some very good young players, was quite possibly the only good thing to come out of his tenure. In any case, none of this is Levy's fault. Indeed, he seems to be determined to rectify it - he has devoted a lot of time, effort and money (and money is definitely the most important of those, from Levy's perspective) on the youth set-up. He isn't doing it for nothing. He clearly fully expects it to be very productive - if he didn't I think he would shut it down rather than just waste money on it (that is just my opinion).
     
  17. S-P Guest

    The funny thing is we have finished above Liverpool in four out of the last five years and they, two, have been in dire need of a new/improved stadium for some time (hell, they are even below us in the table) - but is anyone suggesting Lambert, Lovren and Lallana made a sidways move? LoL
     
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  18. S-P Guest

    I would ask you to run me through the 1 times table...but we mustn't get you excited and taxed so close to your bed-time! Must we?
     
  19. Felon82 Well-Known Member

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    This just gets better and better- Stalky much?
     
  20. notnats

    notnats Well-Known Member

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    I usually only have one coffee in the morning while catching up on new posts but I might need a few with this lot. Some very interesting points being made although I don't intend to weigh into this discussion too much, this idea that there are two differing camps made up of either Enic/ Levy lovers or haters has been done to death on this site. I don't ever recall anyone that was particularly pro Enic, or that could in any way be considered to have a pro Enic agenda. That some of us choose not to foam at the mouth in agreement that everything is doom, gloom and despair at the club and we would be better off by ousting the chairman from the club immediately doesn't necessarily make us defeatists, we all want to see success at the club and we all know how long its been since we last won something significant. That some of us choose to accept, even if it is begrudgingly that Enic are indeed an investment company and is run as such and that does not, and will not, even with a new investment company such as Cain and Hoy ever equate to instant success. By accepting that the club is well run and trying to build the foundations for future success doesn't make me a defeatist because its not happening now, it makes me a realist as well as an optimist. In recent years weve been top four, we are after a disaster of a year still thereabouts so why cant this manager and this team evolve into a winning team ?
    We all want success for this team but do we really want some sugar daddy type buying into our club ?
     
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